Podcast Transcription: Transform Your Body Naturally: Expert Strategies for Long-Term Fitness Success with Cliff Wilson

Ted Ryce: Cliff Wilson, thanks so much for coming back on the show today. Looking forward to diving into a more practical and actionable episode with you.  

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, yeah. We, I think we got, we got a lot off on a few tangents to last in part one.  

Ted Ryce: Absolutely. And I think that sets the stage for people to listen to this one too, because it's important to understand like what natural bodybuilding is that there is such a thing is that, and that you can get great results.  

And so, man, um, I just want to dive right into it. So, what are people missing? What are people, let's start with this, what are people's misconceptions about specifically achieving the type of physiques that you help people achieve? Everyone knows, or at least if they listen to this show, everyone knows, calorie deficit helps you lose body fat, right? 

Or let's say weight, a calorie deficit with protein and resistance training helps you prioritize fat loss so that the majority of fat loss is coming from the weight that you lose. It's primarily fat that you're losing. And if we get to a point where you do get lean enough, we need to turn the corner, get you back up to maintenance calories. 

And if you want to get bigger, you need to be in a slight surplus. So those are the basics. What are, what is your expert take? Can you walk us through like how to achieve such a incredible results like you do with your clients?  

Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, the funny thing is, I think a lot of people miss that what the average person needs to do in order to get in shape and what a high level, you know, professional natural bodybuilder needs to do. 

It's a lot of the same things, like you said, calorie deficit, weight training, you know, uh, and then calorie surplus when you're trying to build muscle. The biggest differences that I see are timescales. And accuracy. So what I mean by that is, um, time scales, meaning a natural high level professional bodybuilder. 

You're usually, I was just emailing a client about this. He's getting ready to do his first show. And he was mentioning some of his goals to me. And his goals were honestly like 10 year goals. You know what I mean? And he was acting like they're going to be done in the next two to three years. And I'm like, you know, this is the decade. 

And so, the same thing goes with the general population, so if you're looking at general population, sometimes when I, when they tell me their goals, they're like, I'd really like to build up my chest, I'd like to build up my shoulders, and the degree to which they're telling me they'd like to build up their chest and shoulders, I'm like, this is like a five year long plan, because i t takes time. 

You know, if you're going to go natural, if you're natural, whether it be to step on stage or just to look better, if you're not using performance imaging drugs, this is a long process. So it kind of brings me back around to what degree of accuracy can you withstand for a five year period? You know what I mean? 

Ted Ryce: What does that mean? What degree of accuracy? In terms of what specifically  

Cliff Wilson: Both diet and training. So when I say what degree of accuracy, how many times a week can you realistically weight train if, you know, I, I don't know how many times we've probably both seen it where people are like, I'm ready to commit to this. 

I'm ready to do it. And they're like, I'm going to go to the gym 5, 6 days a week, and they go to the gym 5, 6 days a week for 6 months. And then what happens? Then they fall off completely because they burn themselves out in time,  

So, I mean, let's be realistic. If you are perfect for six months and then you completely fall off for six months, you're a 50 percent guy, right? 

You have at best given 50% And the funny thing is you'd have been even better if you completely did 50 percent for a full year. And so like, realistically, if you were talking five years, how long, how many days can you go to the gym? If it's three days per week that you can realistically sustain going to the gym, do three days, like that's what you need to do. 

If it's four days, you know, it's whatever you can make sure that you don't crash yourself. And then the same thing goes with, with now going with diet, it gets a little bit trickier because you really need to make sure that it's aligned with your goals. So, for example, if you're trying to lose body fat, it's difficult, it's not impossible, but it's difficult to lose body fat if you're going out to eat like three times a week. 

Because the person preparing that food isn't usually giving much care to what the exact caloric intake of that meal is.  

Ted Ryce: The opposite. Butter makes things taste better and sugar.  

Cliff Wilson: It can be done, but usually it means eating far, far less during the day. So, you know, it's like when you're dieting to lose body fat, if you aren't losing weight on your current caloric intake, and here's the thing is I, it's different when I'm working with bodybuilders because I'm going to work when I'm working with bodybuilders, we are measuring everything to a T, right? 

Everything goes on the food scale. Everything goes on the food scale. But when, you know, you're trying to live a normal life and I have off season bodybuilders that live fairly normalized, they put a lot on the food scale, but you know, they go out to eat with their families and stuff like that, maybe enjoy a dinner here and there with their family, but one thing they understand is that if they're gaining too quickly. 

Or if we're just trying to cut a little bit in the off season and they're not losing, they realize usually it's an issue of their accuracy. One thing I find is that with general population and the research shows this too. is that they're really good at wiping things from their memory.And they, I mean, it's true. 

And the thing that usually, so I mentor, I mentor coaches as well. So I work, I work with general population. I mentor coaches and I have coaches under me. That worked with Jen Papa. One thing that repeatedly comes up with Jen Papa is they would say, I think there's something wrong with my body. You know, right. 

I'm eating 1, 500 calories. I'm eating 1, 200 calories. I'm eating 1, 500 calories. There's something wrong with my body. I'm not losing weight.  

Ted Ryce: Your metabolism is broken and your T levels are, You know, you, you had too much, uh, endocrine disrupting chemicals in your shampoo for sure. That's the answer.  

Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and the funny thing is like, and, and, you know, you and I, you and I would agree, there are people that you get their blood work and they do have like a lot of issues going on, but you can usually still create fat loss in those situations. What is usually the case though, is that, I mean, I think we touched on it last time, the physiological ties into the psychological. 

So it's like, if their blood works a mess, usually they're not even usually in the best like mind state.  

Ted Ryce: So true.  

Cliff Wilson: And so, what, what, what I see is that, you know, they're discounting. Yeah. You may be on a 1300 calorie a day plan. If you're a female, you may be on 1900 calories, 2000 if you're a male. But it's like, they're not registering. 

They went out to eat twice this week. They're not registering the snacks, the finishing the kids plates, you know, when the kid didn't eat the food, those things just don't get registered in their brain. So, the big thing is I would say  

Ted Ryce: alcohol, right? You like lose track. You think you're on track. Well, how many, how much did I, I didn't eat that much. I don't think it's like, yeah, your brain. Is not reliable. Your memory isn't reliable when you're a few drinks deep.  

Cliff Wilson: yeah. Yeah. That, and then like the other sneaky calories, people don't realize this, but like, amino acids in the U S amino acids, you're not allowed to list the caloric intake. They have calories just like protein.  

Ted Ryce: Of  course. Yeah.  

Cliff Wilson: So, you know, I've seen people, is it significant though? It's the same as protein. So like, you know, five grams of five grams of glutamine is going to have the same amount of calories as five grams of protein. So essentially if you, I've come across some people where, you know, there may be more average gym enthusiasts, but they're like trying to really do it right. 

So, they're like, well, I'm having. I'm having 15 grams of branched chain amino acids per day, and I'm having 5 grams of glutamine, and, you know, my pre workout may have, like, 3 grams of arginine. Well, you're, you're looking at over 20 extra grams of protein calories, essentially.  

And so, you know, these sneaky calories, or, you know, those things that don't have calories in them, like the, I Can't Believe It's Not Butter sprays, you know, you do, like, you do a lot of these calorie free things where the serving size is small enough to where the calories don't need to be listed, but you have a ton of it, you know, then once again, more sneaky calories. 

And it's not like that one thing is going to make a difference, but when combined with everything else, it kind of starts to add up a little bit. So, I think it's just a matter of like one, being honest with yourself. And then once again, asking yourself, like, what is a caloric intake and a level of accuracy? 

When I say level of accuracy, like. How many times can I realistically go out to eat per week or have an untracked meal and achieve my goals, you know? And it doesn't need to be exactly the same all the time. You know, you can have times where you do it more and you do it less. But there kind of needs to be some level of, some parameters where you know, I can maintain this. 

This and still make the progress that I want. I find that, um, it's kind of the biggest battle, you know, doing, doing it long enough to be able to let progress accumulate because that's all it is. It's like progress, progress. It's slow when you're natural, but just. You need to let it accumulate, accumulate, accumulate. 

And so don't even think of it in terms of weeks, think of it in terms of years. How many years can you stack up?   

Ted Ryce: And let me jump in there for a second, Cliff, because I think we need to make an important distinction here. You can, and this is something I see with my clients. I mean, you're, you're just, you know, you're, you're just sharing so much important information and perspective right now. 

And one thing that's really important is when you're talking about years, fat loss is quite fast, right? But comparatively speaking, so if you're struggling with fat loss right now, then just understand it's a calorie in issue, calorie in calorie out issue. There's something up with how many calories you're eating could be the sneaky ones that Cliff was mentioning relative to how much you're exercising or you could be trying to. 

Do the math in and out. Like, no, I did 30 minutes of cardio. And so it's like, it doesn't matter if you're, if your weight isn't changing or going in the direction downward, so then it's too many calories and everybody can lose weight no matter what people starve to death. If you stop eating, like you, you can't avoid that truth. 

So, the point is you can lose fat fast when it comes to muscle. I feel like people, one, they have this in gym pop, right? The high, high performing clients. And when I say people, I mean, highly intelligent, highly successful people, but this isn't their wheelhouse. So that's all I mean by saying that. And this is tricky too, Cliff. 

I mean, for us, it comes a lot. It's like, yeah, of course, this is how it works, but this is physiology. You have to know it and understand it. It's not very logical. I find, for example, if you can lose fat super fast, but you build muscle really slow.  

So, can you talk about fat loss, time frames, and muscle growth and the difference there? So people get a more clear, well, can check their expectations against reality.  

Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And you touched on something. Um, sometimes when we kind of like point out these, like what have become to us more obvious, like, you know, flaws and ways that people operate when trying to make this progress. 

It's not a shot at people's intelligence, because, like, you know, this is what we do, I mean, if you put me in a conversation with a bunch of car guys, I'm gonna ask the stupidest questions, right, because I don't know anything about cars. And so, um, you know, it's like, everybody has their own areas of expertise, you know, so it's like, I think, I, I, and, you know, I don't know about you, but sometimes, actually, I find that some of my most knowledgeable educated clients and other subjects tend to make some of the biggest mistakes in their diet training because they kind of assume I've got this, you know, so I think that's like a big thing. 

Ted Ryce: And they're trying to do the math like the math in and out like I've tracked my heart rate, which tells me this is how many calories I burned in this amount of time and cardio and it's like, yeah, but did you measure gas exchange? Did you? Did you have a hood on then you don't know and it's not worth the knowing either. 

We don't need to do that. So I'm, I find the same thing, Cliff.  

Cliff Wilson: I tell that to my bodybuilders. Even sometimes I'm like, you don't really need to track your sodium and potassium when you're like two years out from your next show. Like you don't need to, you know what I mean? Like eat a healthy, comfortable amount, but you don't need to know the exact milligram per day. Not all data is good data.  

Ted Ryce: So true.  

Cliff Wilson: But no, so fat loss, fat loss does come quickly and I'm going to kind of tie these two together. So fat loss. I mean, you could technically lose very quickly, depending on how low you want to put your calories. Um, you know, I think the show, the biggest loser kind of drove that point home when you watch the biggest loser and you'd see people losing 20 pounds in a week when they were obese, you know... 

Ted Ryce: I've never watched it. So 20 pounds in a week, huh?  

Cliff Wilson: Oh, not that it was a, not that it was, not that it was a healthy endeavor, but it was more like get to the finish line and then, you know, Gain it back, right. Whatever situation. And then, yeah.  

But, I mean, realistically, you know, for, for general population, depending on how heavy a person is, right, you know, the heavier you are, the more you can lose comfortably, but, you know, there's nothing wrong with a two to four pound a week fat loss if you're on the heavier side for four, I, I like a, I like a maybe two pound per week loss, if I'm being honest. 

For for like competitive physique athletes, you know, from bodybuilders to bikini competitors. I really like because the slower you lose, the more muscle you will maintain. If I'm getting ready, getting someone ready for a show, I really like a half pound to one and a half pounds per week because that's going to maintain even more muscle that way. 

So, you can create a lot of good progress. I mean, before you know it, you, even if you're just losing two pounds a week, 10 weeks of dieting, you're going to be down 20 pounds. You're going to see significant physique composition changes, losing 20 pounds of almost pure body fat. And I think the other thing too, is a lot of people diet in a manner that try to rush it. 

They diet in a manner where they lose so quickly, you know, I mean, really if they're, if you're not, you know, really heavy. I think four or five pounds a week is a ton of weight and they lose so quickly. Yeah. You may lose that much in three weeks, you know, 20 pounds, in three, four weeks, but it doesn't look the same because you've lost so much muscle tissue in that process. 

Ted Ryce: Opposite of success right there. I mean, that's what I would say.  

Cliff Wilson: If I have somebody lose 20 pounds over 4 weeks and I have them lose 20 pounds over 10 weeks, the 10 week person's gonna look a lot better. But, you can overhaul your physique in 10 weeks with 2 pounds a week. You really can. Like, there's a big, big change. 

And 10 weeks is not a long time. It's 2 and a half months. Can you buckle down for 2 and a half months? You know, forego going out to eat, put the alcohol aside. Let's do it. Now, muscle growth is another story. Um, a lot of people I find base their, their timelines for muscle growth off of the enhanced crowd. You know, they're like, you know, I just want to really buckle down this year.  

Ted Ryce: Or people they don't know who are enhanced too.   

Cliff Wilson: Oh, man, you know, the dirty little secret, and I'll throw this out there, the dirty little secret is a lot of the people that you follow on social media are on something, right? 

Not on usually a lot, but you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of hormone replacement therapy going on out there 

Ted Ryce: including the women too, by the way, including the women. 

Cliff Wilson: Oh, yeah, you know, because a lot of these women will, um, and the men too, they'll diet themselves down to where they have abs, which Abs, not everybody can maintain all the time. 

Some people can, some people can't, you know, it's, but if you can do it, it's, it's, it takes a lot of effort, you know, but they'll diet themselves down. And then, you know, sometimes when you get to abs, I find that a lot of people will have low end of normal testosterone though, where it's like, you know, it's not, It's not a problem, but you definitely don't, like, feel your best there. 

So, I find a lot of these people will diet themselves down to that point, and then you just use, they use hormone replacement therapy to get themselves back up to that tippy top level of, you know, that's a, that's a common thing I see. So, yeah, they don't know that, but muscle growth, you know, I see sometimes people will be like, well, I just want to really buckle down this year, train hard, put on about 20 pounds of muscle. 

I'm like, 20 pounds of muscle? Whoa. You know, in the first five years you train, from the time you walk in to pick up your weight for the very first time to five years, you will build a lot of muscle in that time, you know, yeah, I mean, that time could be within that five years, you really could be looking at 20 to 25 pounds of muscle in five years, which, you know, once again, the crowd that thinks they're going to build 20 to 25 pounds in the first year, it's like right when you, the first year is really an explosion, and then it just peters off thereafter. 

Yeah. By the time you've been training six, seven years plus, you're probably, males, you're probably looking at maybe a pound, a pound and a half of bustle tissue per year. 

Ted Ryce: And we're talking consistent, right?  

Cliff Wilson: Consistent, like it's grinded out. Women, you, you know, half a pound to a pound, maybe even not even if you're small, if you're, if you're, if you're a small woman, you know, five foot, five foot two, five foot three, you're probably looking at less than a half a pound. This is just the realities of how it goes, but ... 

Ted Ryce: So, Cliff, you said a pound to two pounds a year. If you've been training, let's say seven years, you and consistently a pound to two pounds per year. And then for women, a half a pound to a pound a year.  

Cliff Wilson: Yeah. And maybe even less than a half pound if you're a small woman. And to give you an idea of the two pounds per year, you know, to date I've coached 20 world champion natural bodybuilders with about half of them being men, half of them being women. So, world champion competitors from bikini to bodybuilding. Usually it's a combination of they have the genetics that allow them to compete at that level. 

And then they have the work ethic to allow them to top all of the other people with the genetics to compete at that level. Right. So my, my experience tells me that these guys and girls, like they're at the upper echelon of those times of those frames. And, you know, it may seem small, but like the best let's take men. 

So, I've worked with multiple men's world champion, natural bodybuilders. And they tend to gain 2 pounds of muscle tissue per year, almost, religiously. And it may not seem, but then I find that your genetically average bodybuilder, this is in the 7 plus training years, you know, 8, 7, 8 years plus, The average bodybuilder will gain maybe a pound, right? 

And it may not seem a difference between, like, you know, average and elite being one pound per year, but then when you put together five more years of that, you're just stacking. You know, you're really compounding how much progress is accumulating. You know, because there's a big difference after another five years of I've gained five pounds of muscle versus I've gained ten pounds of muscle. 

In addition to a higher starting mass and in addition to that first five years gaining even more. So, I usually find that the genetically elite among us that work really hard are really gonna probably double the pace of the average person.  

Ted Ryce: I want to jump in, uh, Claire for a second just to give people some perspective. 

So, one of the things that I've had an issue with, and I'd love to, for you to speak to this as well is, you know, I've done pretty good in terms of putting on muscle. I'm not a bodybuilder. I'm not certain, not competitive bodybuilder at all. I've. Done focus. Most of my lifting around bodybuilding style approach with progressive overload exercises that would, let's say, maximize muscle mass compared to doing burpees or like kettlebell, you know, complex exercises and that type of thing, but I've had to stop from injuries and or my training backs off. Then I pick it up again.  

So I just want to say something. First to the people out there, like if you're the, the chances are at least the crowd that I work with, you have periods where you back off and you push forward. You're not as consistent as the people that Cliff are talking about right now, even though you may feel like you push yourself hard and that's even considering if you have an optimized workout for muscle growth. 

Versus what tends to be more popular is like the Metcon style stuff, like with the kettlebells, not that you can't put on muscle with that. You can put on muscle with anything, depending on who you are and what you're starting with, right? Even walking, if you're deconditioned enough, we'll build muscle, but yeah, you're probably going back and forth. 

What did, what do you have to say to a person who maybe has found themselves going through like me, maybe they stopped from an injury and had to build back. Or they started doing some other thing and, uh, got too busy. What would you say based on what I just said?  

Cliff Wilson: I'd say that's normal. Even, even for high level body builders. 

Ted Ryce: Really?  

Cliff Wilson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because like any other, yeah, like any other sport injuries happen, you know, you see it with the NFL, NBA, it's like, especially with bodybuilders, you know, they're there, you're pushing your body to the limits and injuries are just going to happen. And so, whether, so you have like something that's a bit more serious where it's like, we need to take time off of lower body or we need to take time off of just training your biceps or whatever it may be. 

Or, whether it's a nagging injury and we say we can still train biceps, but we can't do this, this, and this, whatever it may be. I would say the protocol is usually, is there a path where you can still train the muscle group, whether it be by alternating, you know, switching out exercises or rep range or load. 

If that path exists, then we do that. If it still continues to be a problem, then, then it's time to just not train the entire area for a period of time. So, it's like, those things do happen.  

One thing that I think is like, it's understandable because you know, we all scroll through Instagram and you see everything and even on my page, you know, I don't have, I, you know, I post client victories and before and after photos and it's like, there's not enough time on this, this outlet and I would, but like to talk about every setback that happened along the way in that process, but it's like, you know, sometimes I'll just post up a picture and I'll be like, here's my client that won, you know, this big bodybuilding show. 

And then I'm like, well, we don't talk about that they injured themselves at 12 weeks out and then they're, you know, they got sick at eight weeks out. Oh, and then, you know, their, their dog died at four weeks out. And it's just like, you know, the hits keep on coming.  

So the big question is like, not like a phrase, a phrase I always say is like, a lot of times the people that make the most progress are not the ones that have the perfect situation, but those that can like best manage their own imperfect situation. 

Wow. And, you know, being able to manage the imperfect situations really comes a lot down to resilience because, you know, if you get sick or injured, there is a group that's like, There's no point right now, you know, I'll just eat whatever and, you know, take how long does it take you to get back into it? 

And then there's another group that usually says I'll just do what I can do and I find there's very little in between, to be honest with you like it's either I'm just gonna I'm done with this right now Or I'm just gonna do what I can do and control what I can, you know If you hurt your shoulder, are you gonna go in and train your up your lower body? 

Are you going to still keep some semblance of your caloric intake under control? So that way when you're, my, my clients hate this, so my clients, my clients hate this. Now, this is, I don't know if this is gonna be a Gen Pop thing, but my clients hate this sometimes because even among high level bodybuilders, there's a down feeling, right? 

Like, you, you get an injury and you're like, I'm down and I just, I wanna eat and feel better, right? So sometimes, sometimes we'll be in a growth phase. We're going up, up, up and injury occurs. And maybe it's not too bad or whatever, maybe it is, but it's like, we can't really train your upper body or your lower body or, or we can train it, but it's definitely not at a level that will push new growth, maybe if you've been training, so that way, so what I'll do is I'll go, we're switching gears. 

We're immediately cutting now. And they're like, why are we cutting? If I can't train the full capacity, I'm like, because you're not going to build muscle right now. And your training is hindered. You're not going to build muscle. Let's cut calories, lose some body fat, so we kind of come back down, and then when you are healed, we're now in a leaner position to just keep building even longer now, right? 

We're kind of getting on a window like, won't I lose muscle if I cut calories while I'm not training? I mean research shows it's if you're training with any decent, you know intensity muscle loss is pretty difficult once the muscle has been built and then if you can't train Even if you lose some muscle muscle memory will bring it back like within a couple of weeks. So, they hate it though because they kind of want to feel down and just like I just want to i'm like Nope, we're cutting right now. 

They're like, ah, so now my clients are like no, they never want to, they never want to have a nagging injury pop, go pop up. Cause they know I'm going to switch them right to a fat loss phase.  

Ted Ryce: That's brilliant. Yeah. It seems like a small thing, but as a coach to coach, I recognize the brilliance of that. 

It's like, yeah, you're not going to keep bulk quote unquote building muscle and bulking, right? Cause you're just getting fat.  

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, and I think it sends the message to them that, like, this isn't the time to, you know, throw it away. Like, this isn't throw away time. And I genuinely believe that if people are honest with themselves, and I think this is where the value of, like, having a coach comes in, because, you know, we're all humans. 

I mean, I think you and I have probably caught ourselves in our own lifting careers, having that similar mindset where you get injured, you get frustrated and you just want to say, screw it. But I think there's an advantage to having somebody going, let's not throw away this time, you know, we can still do something we can progress in 1 way or another. 

And so, um, so I think that, you know, and then, you know, like you said, though, you go away from it. Maybe you you find other interests, right? I have one client where he um, you know He was really into weight training for a while. He's a gen pop person, but then he really he got into um, he got into Jiu jitsu for a while and doing like mma fighting and stuff like that and the training wasn't my forte, but I was just helping him with his diet. 

He would say, hey, I find it helps if I need to be this way or for this competition, I need to be that way. We do it. Right. But then after he ran through, you know, even like three years, four years of that, then it was like, hey, I kind of want to get back into it and then we just get right back into it. And so, um, you know, it's just like, it's just one thing to the next. 

I think the important thing is that you have something you're, you're working towards and usually you'll be prepared to jump to whatever you want to.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. That's a really important point, Cliff. And I love how you're bringing up the resilience and the people who, you know, I had a client tell me, he's like, I always thought you were perfect with your diet. 

I'm like, I started laughing hysterically, like on the inside. Cause you mean my cookie, uh, addiction or, so the issue is there's this perception that people who look a certain way, who look like they're lean, they have muscle, they exercise. It's like, we never have setbacks or never screw up or make mistakes. 

But the reality is it's just, you know, I think about it like, because I played music and musicians screw up all the time. When I was playing on stage, I'd mess up, but the difference is you wouldn't know. Cause I just kept playing, right. You just kept playing. And then with this, I feel like it would be the, like you're, you stop, you hit the note, you're like concerts over everyone. I screwed up.  

Cliff Wilson: I need five minutes to recover here. No, that is a great analogy. I'm I, with your permission, I'd like to borrow that for the future with some of my clients. That is an excellent analogy.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. And you don't know, and I've heard other musicians too. I've heard them what's, you know, what sounded like a, um, a wrong note. 

But, um, yeah, they just keep playing and you just never know. And the average person they're so into it, they just don't notice. And it's just about the difference between a pro and an amateur is that how much time do you stay in that mental state of, you know, ruminating about your mistake and versus getting back to it. 

Cliff Wilson: You know, I have a client I've worked with her for 10 years. And so, 10 years, you just learn a lot about each other in that time. And I remember, our road together has been filled with mistakes. On her end and my end. The first time I prepped her, she's a small female competitor. 

And, um, the first time I prepped her, she did well. She took, like, third place, but she didn't live up to her potential because of a mistake on my part. This is, like, 2014? 2013. And, she took third place, but she really could have won had I did a better job. There were a couple of I made along the way in judging what her show weight needed to be and how aggressive I was being. 

And, you know, I was just honest with her. You know, I was also kind of fairly new coach at that point. I just said, you know, I could have done better. And I said, I think I would like the opportunity to, you know, Do this better with you the next time you get on stage. So she took a year off from competing. 

You know, we built some muscle. We did it again. I did my job better this time. She turned pro and then, um, she turned pro. And then, um, then we took another couple of years off to build some muscle. And then she, uh. We did a prep, and she was, due to life circumstances, having, you know, having some trouble sticking to her diet, and she kept messing up. 

And, finally, I was like, we need to pull the plug on this prep. Like, we need to just stop it, right? So, we just pulled the plug, because we weren't going to make it with some of her slip ups. So, we were like, Alright, let's pull the plug. We tried to come back the next, we came back the next year. She got things on track. 

She won her pro debut. And then we tried another prep a little bit after that. She was having some more struggles with that. We pulled the plug again. Then we came back the following year, much better on both our ends. And she actually won the entire world championship. Like she was the best women's physique competitor in the world. 

And I'm like, you know, sometimes so if once again my facebook post or my Instagram and facebook post was you know, me and her holding up the trophy saying world champion, right? But you wouldn't believe we'd had botched prep on my part, you know, two pulled plug preps over the last 10 years, but it's like our data line, our data trend was our trend line was always up, you know what I mean? 

But it was, it was like this, you know, like, like that. And so, I just think that people need to be a little more forgiving to themselves. You know, those mistakes. When it's your mistake, you feel the entire weight of it, you know, it's like, oh I messed up on my diet I missed this training session. You feel the everything that comes along with that, you know the am I competent, you know, um, am I worthy of this, you know, the shame of it, the guilt, whatever it, whatever different people feel, but nobody's feeling that but you, you know, I mean, you miss a workout. 

Nobody sees it except for you and maybe your wife, right? If you can kind of set all that aside and just get back on it the next day, usually the damage done is minimal, as long as too many of those days don't happen.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, this conversation is bringing up two questions for me that I'd love your insight into. 

So, the first question is, how do you, like, what are the things that you do or the qualities of the people who, first of all, that's an amazing story. And it's a story that I think people need to hear because it sounded really bad at the beginning, this botched, you know, she, she still took third. So it wasn't that bad, but the way you said it, it was like, ah, we, we knew we could have done better, but she turned out to win, like the, be the best competitor at her weight eventually. 

So, what are the things like, how do we, how do you coach people to be more forgiving is the first question. And the second one, I'm just going to throw it out there just so I don't forget something that came up. It's like, it's like, where do you find, because I think a lot of people want to change their bodies and I'm not talking about your clientele. 

I don't work with competitors, so I don't know what that's like, but how do you with your gym, pop people. A lot of them think that it's going to change their life when they change their body and it will, it'll change a lot of things, but you can also get to the point where just like I used to train people with Ferraris or Lamborghinis and, um, actually not Lamborghinis, but Rolls Royces, right?  

I didn't have any Lamborghini driving clients actually. So, it never had that. But Ferrari, I had a guy with a Ferrari collection, but the truth is it just becomes their car that they get into every day because this hedonic adaptation, right, it just becomes the thing that's our new life. 

So, like, how do you see people finding happiness in the process instead of being so outcome driven? I don't know which one you want to answer first, but those are the two that came up for me.  

Cliff Wilson: No, you nailed it. Process, you know, I, from the first time I email someone, when I started working with them, I continue to drive home the process and I speak on the process and how we should think about it. 

They will, and the more I see, like they apply with me, you know, and I actually, rather than like having them list just like data points, like here's my weight, here's my photos, just my diet. I make, I have in my application process, I have, they have to write like they I want to see, I want to see what's going on in their head. 

And so, the more they're constantly talking about the outcome, the more I drive home process and the less I talk about outcome because I realize there's work that needs to be done there. And so I kind of ... 

Ted Ryce: like mindset wise, there needs to be work, would you say? Or  

Cliff Wilson: Yeah. And also just like teaching them what the process looks like and. One thing I kind of explained to them like that first client that I worked with where I messed up their, messed up their prep, you know. 

And it's like one thing I kind of drive home to my clients is that I am not perfect And I think sometimes I think clients find this refreshing, you know I've been fortunate to have a lot of success in the coaching arena over the last 14 15 years But I think it's also because I don't try to hold myself up as something. 

I'm not which is perfect. I I don't Tell my clients this is going to be a messy process. I don't, you know, sometimes people will come to me and they'll be like, what do you think I should do with my carbs or, you know, my fat? I'm like, I don't know. I don't know you. You know what I mean? Like, um, and guess what? 

When I first start coaching you, I don't know you at all. And we're going to figure it out together. And the way I coach this person is different from the way I coach that person. And so, we're going to figure it out. And the one thing I kind of, I kind of instill in them is that I'm going to learn about them and I'm going to make the best calls that I possibly can. 

The one thing that they can be assured of, I'm going to do whatever it takes to help them go as far as they possibly can. And if they can know and feel my dedication towards that, they will understand that. While mistakes will be made on my part, because once again, I'm a human being, it will always be learned from and drive me to hone in on what they need even more. 

And then just likewise, so if they know I am saying that on my part, they can know it from their part. I say it is okay if you make mistakes because you will make mistakes. I just need you to do what I'm doing and learn from them, and then we get better together, right? You know, if we're both doing that on our ends, we make our mistakes, and we learn, and we get better, and then we do that as a unit, it's only up, right? 

We become stronger as a unit, and that's why I have a lot of clients that work with me for eight, ten years, and we go far, you know, we go really far in the sport because We know each other like the back of our hands.  

So then when you combine that with like outcome focused individuals, I just kind of say like the outcome is going to come Like we just need to get this process nailed down, you know. If somebody is running a marathon It does not do them  

Like let's focus on the next few steps ahead of us. Like that's it. That's you know We keep our pacing we look at the steps in front of us. Make sure we're not stepping out of any potholes, Put the binoculars away and stop looking at where you will be. We'll get there. And looking at it constantly is a distraction. 

So, I think that that's, that's a big thing. And, and you know, trying to get people to focus on, focus on the right things is, is a challenge. It really is because you know, people, they don't understand. And then I guess the last thing I'll say is, um, one thing I usually explain to them is, okay, I'm, I'm, I would say I'm a cross between a meathead and a nerd, right? 

I'm a meathead because I like lifting heavy things and getting huge and shredded and all that stuff. But I'm also a nerd. I like, I enjoy. The scientific method and I like reading about physiology. So, one thing I always kind of phrase it to people for those that don't know, like the scientific method is like you form a hypothesis and then you run an experiment and then you view the results and then you come to a conclusion and I always tell people my process with my clients is micro versions of that repeated over and over and over again.  

At the beginning of every week, they send me their photos and their weight and they tell me about their week, right? So I've, well, data collection before. So, I've data collected, right? And then, um, and then I form a hypothesis for what changes need to be made to their diet to get them to where I want them to be at the end of the week, right? 

My hypothesis is if I change this, this, and this, that'll get me where I want to be at the end of the week. So, I change that, that, and that. And then they run the experiment by following out that plan during the week. They email me again at the end of the week. And we have our results, right? Either my hypothesis at the beginning of the week was correct, or it was not correct. 

Either way, I have my result, and I can draw a conclusion. And that gets rolled into my following week. I have new information, right? My changes were correct and they were not correct and this is new information to me. And now that helps inform my choices for the following week and we'd run through that process all over and over again. Dozens and if they work with me for long enough hundreds of times and over the course of time. My hypotheses get more and more accurate and their experimentation process, the carrying out of the plan should get more and more accurate because they know how the experiments run. 

If that makes sense. So it's like, I just tell people, that's all we're doing over and over again. Can you keep running it? Let's get better and better. I get better at my hypotheses. You get better at your experimentation and we get stronger.  

Ted Ryce: That was perfect. And I, you know, I asked you two questions, but I think the answer to both of them was what you said. 

It's the process and falling in love with the process. And I'm really curious. One of the things that I've seen with fat loss clients that I've that a few years ago, it really screwed me up was that most people gain back the weight part of that is certainly due to unsustainable practices, but I was already covering. 

I started dealing with that. Like, hey, we can't do keto. If you love pasta, you're going to have to find a way to get into a calorie deficit. Andy pasta or carbs or whatever. So, once you deal with that, then, then something happened that that was interesting because we don't really have, some people struggle with weight loss and they, if you're struggling with fat loss, weight loss, whatever, you know, there's something that you're just not doing right. 

It sucks to hear that, but you're just not doing it right. However, the people who do figure out, okay, so I can do intermittent fasting or keto or track macros or whatever, the five, two diet, I can lose weight. But the problem is you end up hitting a goal, or let's say you figure out how to do it sustainably. 

Let's say you track your calories, go through that process. And you, you know, you can eat the foods that you love and figure out how to put yourself in a calorie deficit and still have pizza or go out a couple of times, whatever it is. Of course, you're not going to be looking like cliffs, clients, the champion bodybuilders, but you can definitely get out of the obese or overweight body fat range. 

So, let's say you do that, but you hit your goal. And what motivated you before was staying in this zone, seeing the weight come down weekly. And then now there's no more weight to lose because if you did. Yeah, you can get a little bit leaner, but then it spikes your hunger and all the things that you mentioned some of your competitors do. 

They have low testosterone, which is something that isn't talked about enough, by the way, like low body fat, low, uh, you know, how the people who you think look like that have the highest testosterone again. Drugs. We're not talking about drugs. They usually don't. So, taking away that, that goal of like watching the scale go down, watching the scale go down, and all of a sudden, it's maintenance time. 

And so, you're looking to keep your weight in a certain range or like you helping clients to build muscle. But even then, we're talking small amounts of muscle per year. So. your weight's not going to shoot up even every week. Ness is, I mean, certainly not every week, but. Unless you're putting on body fat again, how do you help clients? 

Shift away from like the process of how do you help them fall in love with the process so much that once they hit that first outcome goal, they keep sticking with it. And I'm talking about the, the gin pop.  

Cliff Wilson: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think one point is that, um, learning to have other points of joy.  

Ted Ryce: How so? 

Cliff Wilson: Well, so when it comes to like, if somebody is digging hard for fat loss, sometimes certain things need to be put on the shelf, right? Cause food is inarguably, a point of joy for all of us, right? Uh, we like going out and enjoying a good meal and all that. So, when we're in a maintenance phase or a gaining phase, we can enjoy more of that joy, right? 

But in a fat loss phase, that needs to be put aside, and sometimes that fat loss phase gets Enjoyable in itself, seeing your body change, so that's enough to kind of keep you going forward, as you said, it's like, you know, you see this change happening, but then the problem is, it's hard to watch that physique that you've worked hard kind of fade a little bit after you exit a fat loss phase, so then what happens is people slide right back into their previous point of joy, which was food, and then it's like, I don't feel good about the way I, you know, I'm not looking like I did three weeks ago, you know, let me just have more of this. 

So, I always tell people it's good to have other sources of joy in your day. One thing people is like, they get into this, like fitness, people are just notoriously bad at this, but it's like, I'm on my grind type mode. You know what I mean? And it's like, I'll sleep when I'm dead, that kind of stuff. And it's like, they don't realize that you're kind of digging your own grave with that stuff. 

Usually the best, not, not just bodybuilders, but the people that follow their plan. For most accurately after the longest periods of time usually they kind of like set aside How they feel about it too much. Do you know what I mean? Like they eat their meal they do their training and in between those points and they get enough sleep also But in between those points like that's all you really need to do is eat your planned meals train Get enough sleep and in between those points You don't need to be like constantly thinking about you know I'm on my grind and i'm in this fitness thing. 

And so um, I think that it's You Important to have other things that bring you joy and you know, whatever that may be and I know for me Whenever I it's the same thing as finishing up a diet, but whenever I come out of a show you're suddenly freed up with more mental energy. You're suddenly freed up with more mental energy and time and so what I tend to do is Find something that I've been wanting to do like the last time I competed. 

I've always known how to play chess and but I mean, I was just like casual playing. I didn't know strategies or move maneuvers or anything like that. So, like I signed up for an online chess course that I really looked forward to. It busied my mind. It was something I looked forward to and it was another point of joy. 

And I always tell my clients, like, have a hobby ready to go for when your diet ends, you know, if you've been wanting to try painting, try painting. If you've been wanting to learn something. You don't want to do hikes? Get out and do a hike. Then I tell them though, I go, don't do the hike because you're trying to stay lean. 

If you want to get outdoors in nature, I don't want you like blasting through these trails being like, I'm burning so much fat right now. Like, but whatever it may be, find other points of joy in your day that are not, not fitness and not food. Like something, something different, you know, even video games, whatever, you know, just like do something that makes you happy. 

Ted Ryce: That's so interesting because I say the same thing, although the way you said it, it, it just helped me to think about it a bit differently. And I'm going to share it differently next time. But I had a client asked me like, hey, how do I keep she was up for. Renewal, let's say, or she was going to make a decision to continue with me or not. 

And she ended up asking, she was a little bit concerned about losing what she had built, losing everything that she had built. And I said, listen, if you're not going to work with me, go do something else. Go do a couple's retreat. Go do find yourself to find something to immerse yourself into because being fit is supposed to support Like having an amazing life. 

It's not this, this sentence of this life sentence of like, uh, I'm a slave to the, you know, to clean eating and, uh, and going to the gym to workouts. And just like, this is how it is. It's like, you have to find. Something to, I would say a hobby is great. We're also places to grow. I'd love that you started taking chess up. 

That's so cool. What was the online course? I'm personally interested.  

Cliff Wilson: I'll send it to you afterwards. It was like this, uh, it was, it was won by like, uh, Magnus Carlson. It was like the world chess champion. And I like signed up for it just so I could like. Do my lessons and stuff like that on my own time and it was uh, it's been good. 

It's challenging and and I think that just like having something, you know, I guess for gen pop and bodybuilders, um, a big thing. And this is where sometimes I feel like I lose.  

Cause I'm in the fitness industry and bodybuilding is my life. I mean, it's what I do, you know, every day with clients, but sometimes I think I lose general fitness people when I say stuff like this, but I think sometimes fitness takes up too much space in people's lives, like you don't need to be thinking about it every waking second, like, like you said, it should free you up and. 

I go to the gym and I'll deadlift and squat hundreds of pounds and I'll push myself till I feel like I'm like, ready to puke, right? But then I drink my protein shake and I go out into the world and talk about also things that are not fitness related, you know what I mean? Like, I think that there ends up... 

Because I think, if fitness is taking on such a role in your life, and if it's just consuming, that's heavy. You know what I mean? Like, that's a heavy weight to carry everywhere you go. And if it's, if you're thinking about it non stop, it's just heavy.  

And to me, my bodybuilding is light. You know what I mean? Like, it's light for me, because it is only one part of who I am as a person. And sometimes fitness people don't like hearing that, you know, they have, they're like, I want to be on my grind 24 7 and they want to chase that high. 

But I think that, honestly, you get that variety and novelty in life. Then I also don't get bored with fitness because I also have plenty of other variety in my life. Um, and I think that if it, you know, if fitness is all that you have, and it's all that you are. It's only a matter of time before you burn out or get bored, in my opinion. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, another thing that can happen too is, and this happened to me and possibly you, and certainly you've talked about clients it's happened to, but Tim Ferriss talks about identity diversification. And what I heard you say is like, don't wrap up your identity in fitness for one, if you, and this is what I was thinking about, if you get injured, especially if the main part of your fitness identity, let's say, is the training, then it's like, you're not, you're not who you were anymore, right? 

You're not that person anymore. So, if you're not that person who are, you probably a loser. Right. Or I'm not saying that, but that's what goes on. That's the thinking.  

Cliff Wilson: I think maybe we talked about that in part one, but yeah, the identity thing is such a big deal because, um, oh, we were talking about like, be a person who will do whatever it takes, not a person who works hardest. 

And I think that is also the problem, because if, if your identity, your whole identity is um, you know, I'm a fitness person, then if you, if you cheat on your diet, which everybody will at some point, and you deviate, a person who is well rounded, and you know, funny thing, I, and I'm gonna sidetrack this, I, when I have high level competitors, every time I have a competitor win a pro title, not just a world, not a world championship, but a pro title, a person who's become pro and then wins a title, I kind of ask them, a lot of times I ask them a question, not all the time, but a lot of times I'll ask them the question of like, what's your, where does bodybuilding rank and the importance in your life? 

Just out of curiosity, something I started like eight years ago. I find that the most success comes when people list bodybuilding somewhere between second and fourth I don't think I've ever had anybody win a pro title that I've asked. And their bodybuilding was their first importance in their life. 

Usually if it's a young man, single young, you know male or young is sometimes you know female bodybuilding will be second a lot of times they'll say like their, you know, their mom and their dad or their family or their career they're working on or whatever, but then you can find it gets pushed down, right? 

And then they have their own family and, you know, sometimes people will put religion in there or whatever, but two to four is the sweet spot for long term fitness success, because then if it's number one and it's all that you are, when you slip up on your diet, now you haven't just failed because right you deviate on your diet when your stated goal is to not deviate. It's a failure, right? 

It's a small failure, but it's a failure. But um now you haven't just failed now you are a failure, right? There's a big difference between I failed and I am a failure and um if fitness is all that you are It is hard to pick yourself up over and over and over again If every little deviation gets coded as you being a complete failure. 

Ted Ryce: I do remember you saying this last time, but it's such an important lesson that it bears repeating well, more than, more than even a second time, it's just, it's these messages that we need to hear that we're just not getting from other places. So, Cliff, man, this has been, uh, an incredible second interview, although we didn't get to exactly the topics that I wanted. What I love about podcasting is we had the conversation that we needed to have today.  

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, I'm totally, I'm here for it.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, man. And so, listen, if you're interested in learning more about Cliff Wilson and perhaps even hiring him, go to teamtilsonbb.com. 

And you can also find Cliff on Instagram @cwteamwilson. And if you want to check out the show notes for this episode on legendarylifepodcast.com, all the links will be there as well. Cliff, just another fire interview. Thanks so much for coming today. And yeah, man, it's just a pleasure to talk with you every time. 

Cliff Wilson: I really appreciate it. Thank you.