Podcast Transcription: The New Rules of Attachment: How Your Attachment Style Can Impact Your Career and How to Break Free from Self-Sabotage with Dr. Judy Ho

 Ted Ryce: Dr. Judy, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Really excited to talk with you.  

Judy Ho: Oh, I'm so excited to talk to you too, Ted. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast.  

Ted Ryce: Now you have a great story because you were a forensic psychologist, neuropsychologist, which I don't know how many people know what that is. 

I know what that is. I had a friend of mine slash, uh, guest who's been on the show, but now you don't do the forensics and that type of thing that the testing, you help people understand where negative self talk comes from and something called attachment theory.  

So I'd love to, before we dive into what attachment theory is and the negative self talk, I'd love to hear a little bit about what did you do as a forensic neuropsychologist? 

Judy Ho: Yeah, so I'm still doing that now. I have a private practice and I'm still serving as an expert witness. So I still, that's still a very active part of my professional life. But as a forensic psychologist, essentially I work with lawyers a lot. Uh, most of the times I'm retained on civil cases, which means that there's all different kinds of things from people complaining about a personal injury that may have affected their brain or their mind. 

And then essentially there's a lawsuit and people have to find out, well, did this person really suffer harm? And exactly what kind of harm did they suffer? And how much is the defendant Responsible for that. So that's really how civil cases work. And then when I'm retained on criminal cases, that's I think what people think of most when they think about forensic psychologists. 

It's like looking at an alleged criminal. Do they have personality disorders? Can they be recidivated? Um, can they be rehabilitated? And also, is there any mitigating factors that the jury should consider in the sentencing? So So yeah, I do both. Sometimes I have to go visit high security prisons to go evaluate these individuals, which I have lots of great stories for that. 

I mean, the scared straight program should work for everybody because whenever I'm there, I'm like, wow, you get stripped of all of your own personal liberties for the time that you're there. You can't have your devices. You can't have certain things that you get searched. And, you know, I have no way of contacting people when I'm inside, except to rely on the prison guards. 

And so, yeah. There's been some really interesting misunderstandings where I was left in a room by myself for an hour. Nobody came back. I had no idea what was going on, who was going to show up. Uh, at another time I had to go to the bathroom and they opened a jail cell for me and I was like, well, I'm not really sure if I feel comfortable going to the bathroom where everybody can see me. 

And then they said, oops, we had a miscommunication. We thought it was the prisoner who needed to go to the bathroom. We didn't realize that it was the doctor who was evaluating the prisoner and then they opened the secret door and it was like a very nice bathroom with a door and everything. So anyway, just lots of stories like that in my forensic work. 

Ted Ryce: Wow. Yeah. I've been to one maximal security prison. I was like, Wow. I was never that motivated to be a criminal, you know, but now I'm really like in the opposite direction. I'm like not going to break any meaningful law except for speeding or jaywalking. Right? 

Judy Ho: Exactly.  

Ted Ryce: It's very, it's like, well, people don't know anyways, different than the shows. So Judy, how did you get into helping people with like, your books, your Ted Talk, which is, uh, it feels like a totally different thing where you're, is there a connection between the two?  

Judy Ho: Oh, definitely. I mean, because I do see patients all the time and I see people go through various forms of trauma and other mental health concerns, and they're looking for those answers of why did I get to the place that I am at today? And how do I actually live the life I want to live?  

Now, that's really the commonality for everybody that I evaluate is, you know, they're suffering from some kind of mental health concern and some of them have good insight about where it might come from.  

Most of them don't have complete insight and then they've tried different things and it's just not working and they want to know, well, we all have only one life to live, so how can I make it the most of what, of, of the time that I have? How can I make the most of the time that I have here? And, and how do I make a positive impact? How do I leave earth when it's my time to leave, when I feel actually good, sad, satisfied about the way I live my life. I think that that's really the common goal for most people I see.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, well said. And can you talk about attachment theory and what it is, where it comes from, and why you feel it's so important for people to know? 

Judy Ho: Yeah. Attachment theory is one of the, I think the fundamental universal ideas that applies to every single human being. We all come into the world as essentially blank slates. We're trying to soak up everything around us.  

We want to know. You know how to relate to others and and how we're going to get our goals met and also how to feel about ourselves and these early attachment relationships are where we learn so many of the rules for life that we then apply into our adulthood and part of the reason is because these learnings are solidifying at a time when you're just trying to learn the way the world works and so even as an adult, even if your situation has changed, your environment has changed, you still tend to carry a lot of those same lessons and apply it to new situations.  

Ted Ryce: And can you talk about, like, more specifically, practically what happened? So I've had someone on the show who's discussed attachment theory before, but the way you talk about it, it's a bit different. 

So if someone's brand new to this idea, like, what do they need to know about attachment theory and how it relates to them?  

Judy Ho: Yeah, for sure. So, attachment theory goes all the way back to in maybe the 1950s or 1960s. Dr. John Bowlby and some of his colleagues started to study, um, how infants and how toddlers were relating to people in their lives. 

And essentially what we need to know about attachment is that infants were all born with a set of biologically ingrained behaviors that are designed to keep our caregivers close and provide protection to us. Some of these behaviors are like crying and clinging and following the caregiver wherever they are. 

And everybody has primary attachment figures. For most people, it's parent or parents, but it could also be extended family or teachers or coaches, important adults in that person's life.  

And the quality of the responses that your adult caregivers give you in these early years form the basis of the child's attachment style, which then goes into the development of their self talk, their self concept and self esteem. 

It's all of the different things that people believe about themselves. And essentially, the early research showed that there were four different attachment types. So there's one secure type and then three insecure type. So the secure type is the most well rounded one. These children tend to feel confident that their attachment figures are going to be available and responsive and helpful, and they use the caregiver as a secure base from which to explore the world. 

And this applies also as they grow older into adulthood. And then the three insecure attachment styles, um, include avoidant attachment, ambivalent, resistant attachment, and disorganized attachment. And so, when we look at these other insecure attachment styles, it came from essentially learning that perhaps the world isn't really a safe place that you couldn't count on the people around you. 

So they ended up developing these coping strategies to survive as children. But then as adults, it becomes the basis for certain maladaptive behaviors that doesn't serve their life in different areas. So attachment style tends to be talked about most as it pertains to romantic relationships. But what I found in my research and working with patients is that attachment doesn't just affect your romantic relationships. 

It affects how you are in at work, how you are with the friends, how you are with family members, um, how you are when you have to think about personal goals, like mental and physical health, it affects really every aspect of your life.  

And so if you have one of the insecure attachment styles, it might mean that you're more prone to self-sabotaging self-fulfilling prophecies that are more negative in nature. And then just feeling like you can't persistently go after a goal and get the results and outcomes that you want.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. That's a great way to. To start off this conversation, and I want to address something that you said, you said we come into the world as blank slates. And, um, I know what you mean by that, but we're not completely blank, right? 

We have, like, you even mentioned, we all cry, that we didn't learn how to do that or hunger cues, that type of thing. And we also have cognitive biases as well, like the recency bias, negativity bias, all these other things too. And, but what you're saying is like, we have some preprogramming, but then we're like pretty blank as well. 

And then how that all interacts with the environment, with the people, our parents and the other people that we're surrounded by, it all creates, I guess, what you would call our, what most people would say is their personality, like, oh, I'm just not an exercise person or no, I just, you know, I lose my temper. 

I'm just one of those people that loses their temper, right? Or. Can you talk about, can you talk about like the, I read something to the effect of maybe 50 percent of people or 55%. I know this is probably really hard to break down into stats, but it was something, some figure like around 50 percent of people have this secure attachment style and then like the other 50% we're a mixture of the insecure styles. Is that right? Or can you talk about that?  

Judy Ho: Yeah. So, actually the research is much more skewed in that about 80 percent of people have insecure attachment styles and 20 percent to 25 percent have the secure one. And I think that that's if people are being honest too, because some people might say I have a secure attachment style and maybe their partner or their family member, like, are you sure about that? I'm not really sure. 

So I, the most recent study that I read was one from you gov that showed that about 70 percent of American adults said that they had an insecure attachment style, but you know, the rates vary from 70 to 80 percent that have insecure attachment. I also think it's important to know that for a lot of people, they might have secure attachment in some areas of life, but maybe in other areas, not so much. 

So when they are at work, they feel pretty securely attached, but then when it comes to pursuits. That's where their insecurities show up, you know, and so I think that that that is also something important to point out as well as people having combination type. So, some people will say, well, I'm both anxious and avoidant. And I show traits of both, but it kind of depends on the situation and what I'm triggered by. And I think that that's also very, very common.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. And I think the next question would be like, how do we know, right? How do we figure this out? What attachment style am I, how do I figure that out for myself? 

Judy Ho: Yeah. So, first thing is, you know, taking a quiz would be great. I actually have a quiz I developed. Um, it's available for free on my website. You can also access it through my social. If you just click on the links through my social media, you're going to get to that. So, that's a great way to understand how your attachment styles are manifesting. 

Another way is just to read about the different attachment styles. When you read about the different attachment styles, you'll also get a sense of, oh, okay, this describes me more than another one. But yeah. I think if you're not certain, the quiz is a great place to start. And then, like I said, reading the descriptions of how each attachment cell tends to manifest, that's another way to understand where your attachment cell might be right now. 

Ted Ryce: Right. And it's interesting that it can be different depending on the area of life. Um, so, so let me just say this really quick. If you're interested in doing this quiz, go to drjudyho.com and you can also find her on social media, the same name there.  

But yeah, go there, do the test and get some self-awareness because I don't know if you'd agree with this, Judy, but change starts with self-awareness. 

At least when I work with clients, it's like, Hey, you need to start becoming aware, not just of the information with nutrition, exercise, but what throws you off? Because it's not knowledge. I work with super successful, highly intelligent people. It's not a knowledge issue. It's more like, Oh, I can't do keto because I love pasta. 

And when I'm in Positano, I want to have the, you know, the lemon pasta. Right. And so how do you, how do you reconcile those things or when stress gets on at work? So yeah, that self-awareness is key.  

So, if you're curious about your attachment style, go to Judy's website or to her social media, take the test and let's talk about this.  

Romantic relationships are super important. Most of the clients I deal with are married, I've heard more about attachment styles. Like I'm single right now. So, I'm very interested in this, but for people who are in relationships and they're just hearing about this now, because I think it, I think it just caught on, right? 

It's been around since the 1950s is what you said, but it's just catching on the past few years. What does someone need to know about how they're showing up in their relationship? Of course, they got to do the test to figure themselves out, to get a bearing on like, you know, what attachment style they might trend towards in their relationship. 

But can you share some examples or maybe a story of a client you worked with and how you dealt with their attachment style to help them?  

Judy Ho: Yeah, definitely. So one very common attachment cell is a more anxious attachment cell where the person might need a lot more reinforcement or validation to feel secure about who they are, but also where the relationship is going. 

So, when a person doesn't call for a bit, they're like, okay, was everything okay? Do they still like me? Did I say something wrong this morning? Why are they not calling me back? And they're also more prone to codependency behavior. So, they tend to put other people's needs in front of their own. And then when their partner is upset, they're upset too. 

You know, maybe they're even more upset than their partner. So, they start to overly identify with the partners in their life. And this type of attachment style develops sometimes when people as a child were met with some inconsistent caregiving, you know, so they weren't really sure when their supporter was going to come around. 

And so, every time they didn't have access to their supporter, it gave them this idea that, well, I have to find some way to keep them close to me. And so, as adults, they end to, they tend to be these people who are overly supportive of other people, overly helping, almost like a martyr in some ways, and they put their needs, their own needs aside, um, just because they don't want to lose the support that they have. 

And so in this type of relationship, I've helped a number of different patients really just understand, you know, how important it is for them to have their own identity and also to start to think about their own self-esteem and self concept from as coming from within, as opposed to you it needs to be proven over and over again by somebody telling you that you're special by somebody telling you that that you should that that you're loved all the time. 

And the problem also is that as they become overly dependent on that kind of feedback with a romantic partner, the one time they hang up the phone without saying I love you, they start to feel like something's wrong. The partner was just distracted, or maybe they just didn't feel like saying it. Then that doesn't mean that they don't still love you. 

Um, so it's really about understanding how do you validate yourself? A lot of that work is, you know, getting, getting to a place of understanding of who you really are outside of a relationship. And then spending quality time with yourself. People with anxious attachment tend to have a lot of struggles being by themselves for long periods of time.  

So, I've given my patients challenges to like take themselves out to dinner and like, don't bring your phone and just stare at it the whole time, you know, put your phone away, leave it in your bag and just people watch and just interact with the people who are there. 

And in the beginning, it's really. Uh, nerve wracking for them. Like, Oh my gosh, everyone's going to think that I'm a loner, a loser. I'm at dinner by myself. But honestly, most of the times, 99. 9 percent of the times people are thinking about themselves. And they're not thinking about you, you know, so it's just really challenging these ideas of I can't do things alone or what will people think of me? Like really helping them to have a more internal sense of self validation.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. I think a lot of people can relate to that. I mean, uh, I would, I've done a lot of things alone. I traveled alone, but I would yeah, not having my phone, that would be, that would be an issue, but I, you know, it kind of brings up another thing where, where we're kind of in a situation where, just to use that example, I'm having Michael Easter on the show and he, he just wrote a book called, uh, the scarcity brain and, you know, going back to this idea that there are some, you know, we, we're a blank slate in many ways. 

In many, many, many ways, and we're reprogrammable, but there's also some hardware stuff that we come with that we need to know about. And so, like, yeah, let's talk a little bit about how does this play into how we interact in the world with. Like, for example, the, the situation you gave the anxious style, how does it play into other roles of like, how would that look like in work? 

So you gave an example in the romantic relationship where someone doesn't say, I love you. And you're like, Oh my gosh, is everything okay? Maybe something's going on. And then someone not being able to be away from their phone. What would that look like in terms of work?  

Judy Ho: Yeah, great question. And so at work, somebody with anxious attachment, it tends to show up in again, an incessant need for approval and validation. 

So they're always seeking reassurance and approval from their supervisors, from their colleagues. They might frequently ask for feedback and worry all the time about how they're perceived by others. So if they have to talk at a meeting, most of the meeting, they're stressed out about whether or not everybody thought that what they had to say was important or meaningful. 

They also might be highly sensitive to criticism. And oftentimes they would interpret neutral or constructive feedback as a sign of personal failure. And that can lead to anxiety and stress and it can impact their performance and job satisfaction even more.  

Anxiously attached people, they may have hard time self starting at work. They might rely heavily on their colleagues and their supervisors for support and guidance around projects. So, it's kind of like, well, I want to make sure that everything's okay before I actually pull the trigger on this, as opposed to just being able to have their own ideas and be able to execute them. 

And I think that the fear of making mistakes or being judged can lead to a lot of heightened stress. It can lead to overworking and burnout and even difficulty concentrating on tasks. And because they're so worried about what other people might think, it also could lead to avoidance of risk and potential innovation, because sometimes to be able to make a leap at work and you got to take a chance and people with anxious attachment would have a more difficult time taking chances. Cause again, they were so worried about the potential rejection that could result.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. So, if you're listening to that right now and it, any of it hits home, you want to go do that test to figure it out. I'm such a huge fan of using assessments. One of the first things, or the first thing that we do when a client signs up with us. 

And we're doing body transformations and, you know, but that's what we lead with. But we, we also do long term health optimization, looking at people's blood work, for example, and seeing if there's anything that needs adjusting. It all starts with an assessment. And this, the same thing is true with your psychological life. 

And I want to throw something in here because I think. I kind of, I'm really excited to get into this with you. We have a lot of people talking about reps and, you know, new different nutrition topics, reps, exercises, how to build muscle. And if you haven't listened to this podcast that much, you know, you may have heard me mention in the past, the biopsychosocial model of health. 

So, the idea. If someone's healthy, they're lean, they're strong, or, you know, this average guy's idea of healthy, right? Lean, strong, and can bench press their body weight, or maybe more, and it's like, well, that's one part of your life, but psychologically, if you can do all those things, but you're lonely, you're suffering from either loneliness or social isolation, that's going to affect your health. 

If you've got anxiety coming from your attachment, like, uh, I was very in shape when I was younger, but I had a lot of psychological problems and I didn't realize like, I'm not that how it took me a while to figure out, you know what, I'm not that healthy. Everyone looks at me and thinks I'm like the perfect picture of health. 

Also, during that time, I was drinking a lot and, you know, partying, I was training the rich and famous in Miami beach. So, I get into invited all these parties and my brain was totally messed up from, you know, drinking multiple times a week. But like, it's really important to understand you can't be healthy. 

It doesn't matter, even if you got clean bill with your blood work and you're doing well with your body fat percentage and you're exercising consistently, then these things are the next level. So just keep that in mind. I don't believe that you can be healthy without those three pillars. Let's say the social, the psychological and I would even put it on you, Judy, how do you look at health and how this, what you help people with plays in to their overall, let's say, how they take care of themselves?  

Judy Ho: Yeah, absolutely. You know, so, so much of what self-care really is, is a respect for, for yourself. You're a respect for who you are, a valuing of who you are. 

And a lot of times people struggle with self care if they really have low self confidence and low self esteem, because they may think that they don't really deserve self compassion and self care. But as you were just mentioning, Ted, I mean, there's such a huge connection. Between physical and mental health. 

We know that that's why the integrated approach is so important, you know, stress affects both your mental health and your physical health. Chronic stress that isn't managed well can lead to a lot of physical problems like hypertension and cardiovascular disease, a higher risk for obesity and weakened immune function. 

When your stress hormones are constant in your body, it has detrimental effects on both your mind and your physical health. And of course, when you have mental health concerns that aren't being taken care of, It's going to influence your physical health too, because when someone's anxious or depressed, they're going to have a more difficult time eating healthfully exercising. 

They're going to do some escapist coping that isn't very healthy, like maybe overusing alcohol or even substances. And when people have a chronic mental health concerns that aren't addressed, it weakens the immune system, which means that your body is more susceptible to infections and may be slower to recover from illnesses as well. 

So, there's just so many different connections that we have to be aware of, and so much of it goes back to this feeling of, you know, do I deserve self-care? Do I deserve to eat healthy? Do I deserve to exercise? Do I deserve to set aside time to do something that I really enjoy? Do I really think I deserve good things? You know, and if people can work on their self-confidence and their self-esteem, I think that that's one of the key pieces of how this can all come together.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, well put. I love how you're, I love your perspective because, uh, you know, I come from a very different perspective. Things like I'm looking for someone that might have signs of fatty liver, which is connected with higher rates of subclinical depression and anxiety as well as full on clinical depression and anxiety. And so, this is coming from a different perspective from the, from like, how are you interacting with the people in your life? And most importantly, yourself.  

I'd like to change gears a little bit and talk about self talk and, uh, the, your, uh, Ted talk starts off talking about that. Can you talk a little bit about what you think people need to know? 

Because we all have a narrative, I'm just, you know, I, I gave some examples earlier, like, I'm just not someone who goes to the gym. You know, it's so ridiculous. If you think about it, it's like you were not a person who used a cell phone until cell phones were fitted, but now you can't even be separated from your cell phone, like we learn how to do different things all the time. 

But we, in some areas of our life, we, we kind of stay stuck in a narrative. What can you say about, again, which, what do we need to know about self-talk and, you know, to be more aware of it and how it affects our lives?  

Judy Ho: Yeah, self-talk is kind of like your internal narrator. It's always running in the background of your life. And so much of the time we don't even pay attention to it. And I think it's because it feels like it's so mundane that our brain is not consciously clocking every single thing we're saying to ourselves. But nevertheless, it is affecting our thoughts. It's affecting our feelings. It's affecting how we behave. 

And a lot of this negative self -talk actually comes from a protective place. You know, human beings are more prone to thinking negatively because it's a way of us to protect ourselves and to survive. Like, okay, if I know everything that could be hurting me, then maybe I'm going to avoid that threat and keep surviving. 

But I think most of the time our brains overcorrect, it goes overboard. And so, It's one thing to say, okay, this might be a possible concern, but usually our minds get into this rut of like ruminating over this 1 percent chance thing happening. And so, there's actually proof for this because I read a recent study conducted by researchers at Penn state university. 

They asked chronic worriers, people who worry about all kinds of things, generalized anxiety, essentially. To write down all of their worries every single day for 10 days, and then they made them review this list of worries for another month to see if any of them came true and 91.4 percent of the worries didn't even come partially true. 

So that just shows you how much time we spend thinking about things that aren't ever even going to come to fruition, but it really affects our mindset, it really affects how we feel about ourselves in our lives too.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. And, uh, I mean, I can think of multiple clients who said, you know, when my brain gets going, I can't sleep. And when I can't sleep, I end up not training. And then also I'm more likely to not make the best choices nutrition wise. And it all comes from this idea or this let's say this, this habit rather of ruminating on stuff that never, I can't relate to that at all personally. It just, it's one of those things... 

So how, if we're a ruminator and how do you coach your clients or, uh, how do you coach them on how to change or how to rein it in? Can we stop it even?  

Judy Ho: Yeah, definitely. Well, I think first of all, it's just having compassion for yourself. As I said, this is a universal thing. It's basically an evolutionarily, uh, adaptive strategy that got turned on its head a little bit. 

Got a little extreme. So don't beat yourself up further for having negative self talk because that could be like a secondary wave of negative thoughts that you have. It's like, why am I having so much negative self talk? But I think, you know, for me, the formula is to think about it in 3 different pieces. 

So, when you notice a negative, positive, Talk that isn't really realistic and is affecting you negatively. There's three things that you can do. You can question the thought, modify the thought or deemphasize its impact.  

So, questioning the thought, you know, most of the times we have a thought and we automatically believe it. We automatically think that it is true or it's coming true. And yet we have over 30 to 60, 000 thoughts a day on average. So, it can't be possible. All those thoughts are true, right? So, it's really starting to get into the routine of, okay, just because I had a thought, is it actually true? No, it's not. Um, it's, it's, it could be true. 

It could be partially true. But most of the times there's something that needs to be investigated. So, my favorite exercise is actually to do an exercise called Evidence for/evidence against. So it's almost like imagining yourself in a courtroom and you're, you're a juror and you're trying to understand, well, what's the evidence for this problem? 

What's the evidence against this problem or whatever question it is. That you have. And so the exercise just involves you writing down on a piece of paper, the thought that you're having at the top of the page, and then dividing the page into two halves, and then writing on top evidence for, evidence against, and then actually taking the time, take a couple minutes to actually write down. 

Well, what is the evidence that actually supports this thought? And that's not just more thoughts, right? Cause that can be just your thinking. It's things that people can actually validate that there's somebody in the room and they can say, yep, I observed that, right? So if you have a thought. that you're never going to be able to reach your goals. 

Like that's just not going to happen for you. Then what's the evidence for that? Like, have you never reached a goal in your life? Right? Um, so it's really questioning that and finding true evidence for the thought and evidence against the thought. And what most people are going to find is that they have things in both columns that it's not just evidence for, yet when we think that thought in our heads, initially kind of just feels like it's a given and it's really not.  

So, once you see that there are these two sides. And that maybe the thought isn't fully true. Then I like to move to that second class of strategies, which is modifying the thought. But modifying the thought doesn't just mean blanket positive thinking, because that doesn't really work, especially if it's not realistic. 

So, I like to use a formula called yes, but so yes, recognizing something that isn't going well, but acknowledging something that is going well, or something that's at least in process and under your control. So yes, I didn't get that promotion this time, but I'm taking a certification class and that's going to make me more qualified for the next promotion, right? 

So really getting used to this idea of finding balance thinking something that really captures your reality, but there's going to be days where you do the first two parts and you're going to say, yeah, I get it intellectually makes sense, but emotionally, I'm just not there. I'm just not feeling good. 

Then this is where you have to just deemphasize the impact of the thought. So, this is a very quick shorthand. It's called labeling. And essentially you just add this little sentence in front of any negative thought that you're having, which is I'm having the thought that. So, if your original thought is I'm going to end up alone, cause you just had a really bad breakup. 

You're like, I'm going to end up alone. I'm going to like die alone. Just attaching this little clause in front of that thought, like I'm having the thought that. I'm going to end up alone. Now you can see that it's a different relationship to the thought. Like the thought is still there. You haven't changed it, but you're just saying to yourself, it's a thought that I'm having. 

It doesn't mean that it's already true or is going to come true. It's just a mental event. It's just something that I thought of, a thought that I'm having. I'm having the thought that I'm never going to lose this weight. I'm having the thought that my marriage is doomed, right? It really helps to be able to just put your mind in a different place and also just change the relationship that you have to your thinking.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I love those. They're great examples of what we can do, right? Evidence for, evidence against, the yes, but and then I'll tell you this. If you're listening and you're thinking, oh, that's fantastic. 

I'm going to write that down and, you know, try some of these and then you stumble. And get pulled back into your typical habits, which happens to most of us get Judy's book or just work with her. I'm a huge fan. I love that there's so much information out there, but I also feel like what you just said, it's a great, those are three great tactics at the same time, people are going to listen and go Oh, yeah, that sounds wonderful. Oh, exactly.  

And then in the pressure of the moment, when they're having that negative self talk, or they're not going to do it, they're not going to remember it because their brain is flooded. With adrenaline and cortisol. So if you're one of those people where you can't just learn something on a podcast and then apply it immediately into your life, there's nothing wrong with you. 

And there's nothing wrong with the tactics either. It's just, you need coaching to make that happen. Or, you know, uh, therapy is, do you call that, uh, do you call what you do therapy, Judy?  

Judy Ho: Yeah. Psychotherapy. Yep.  

Ted Ryce: Okay, cool. Yeah, we're in such a, in. And what I love about it too, is you're taking a very, I mean, I don't know exactly what you refer to your style as, but it sounds like cognitive behavioral therapy, right? Where,  

Judy Ho: yeah, that's a big basis  

of it.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, exactly. And so, we're not talking about like, hey, how did, when you were five and your dad didn't, you know, hug you because he had to go to work and whatever the story is, it's like, well, maybe we, we need to talk about that or not, but really like in your life right now. 

Cause Judy, I feel, you know, I just feel like people, uh, and I used to feel this way, I don't feel this way anymore, but I was like, Oh, you know, there's something really wrong with me and I've had people say to me, Oh, I'm broken. I'm like. You're not broken, okay? You didn't murder anybody. You're not, you know, you're not like a serial killer. 

You're not doing anything crazy. You're having some trouble, but everybody has trouble. And to go back to what you said earlier, a lot of what we're dealing with, and it's the same thing with what I help people with. We're dealing with this brain that is ideally suited for hunter and gathering environments that are high in threat and a lot of scarcity where the woolly mammoth got away and you don't know if you're going to be able to find another one to feed your family and you all might starve to death, right? 

Or the warring village or whatever people, you know, like we just make up these stories that happened like 10 to 20, 000 years ago or whatever, but we're all dealing with this stuff that we come with and scientists, at least in the, in my world, in the health and fitness world, they call it a gene environment mismatch. 

So, genetically, you're programmed a certain way, for example, to be attracted to high calorie foods, but that's no longer serving us because now we have door dash and you don't need to get up off your, but you can just stare at the computer, watch Netflix, have it delivered to you instead of going out and gathering and hunting. 

It's. It's, um, so, so can you follow up on that a little bit and talk about maybe that person or talk to that person who maybe they feel like, oh, there's something really wrong with me. I'm successful in some areas, but I've got an issue with this other area.  

Judy Ho: Yeah. I feel like that's 99.99 percent of people, you know, um, most people are not essentially feeling like they're failing in every single aspect of life. 

For most people, they might be successful in 80 percent of their life, 90 percent of their life, but there's just one part that they just can't totally wrap their heads around. And I think that some of it is related to your triggers. You know, like where, where are you having difficulty because it might remind you of a painful memory in your past or a past failure in this area. 

And now you just can't get past that, right? Or there are certain types of self esteem and self belief that is actually, you know, different across the different domains of your life. I've known a lot of people who will say, well, I feel very confident at work. I feel really confident too when I set goals for myself physically. 

But when it comes to romantic relationships, no, I don't have that confidence. I feel like it's just not going to work out for me. So, then I just pour all of my heart and soul into these other areas that are more successful. Like why even invest in a romantic relationship if it's not really going to work out, you know? 

And I think that that's most people. And so, I think just knowing that too, and knowing that everybody kind of has their, their, their, uh, you know, what, what's a good way to put it? Like sort of like their vulnerable spots, you know, and if you notice that it's always the same area that you have a vulnerable spot, it's, if it's always when you set a physical goal for yourself and then you can't meet it, or if it's always at work, then you know that this is an area that you need to focus on more and need to spend more time with to be able to, to transform it. 

And so one good thing, though, is that if you are successful in these other areas of life, you already know that you can do it. You already know that there's a relationship to success in your life. And so, it's really about moving those skills over, like finding a way to translate them to a different area of your life. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, and I think what you said there is the key, right? Everything's a skill. Some of us might be better at some things than other others. For example, like the whole health and fitness world for me is, I don't know, it's just easy.  

And not only have I been doing it for a long time, but it just, I get it. And people, you know, it took me a long time to get to be a better coach, to understand that other, this is hard to understand, but I work with super successful people and I'm like, yeah, I'm here and helping you, but like, I've had to work so hard to become a better business owner. How do you hire the right employees and train them and how do you make a business work and how to scale it?  

Those are all things that was so, you know, that I'm still in the process of learning and my clients crush it. It's like, oh, they can listen to a podcast. Like we talked about earlier, you know, in, in listen to someone give off a few tactics like you did, they can go implement them on in their business right away. 

For me, I'm like, I need to talk to someone. I'm in business coaching, I'm in other mentorships. So just keep that in mind. If you're, if you're listening right now.  

And Judy, how has this been impactful for you? Because you come across like someone who's has this stuff figured out. Right. And obviously you do an intellectual way and I'm sure in a very practical way as well, but how, how is learning about this stuff, the attachment, the negative self talk? Can you give an example, you know, where you always just, did you always just crush it in this area? 

Judy Ho: No, I mean, I think that all of us probably, if we're being really honest, uh, we can find these areas that, you know, needed attention or still needs attention. And so, you know, one of my, one of my, my first personal experiences with understanding what self-sabotage was, was when I was procrastinating a lot, especially in my 20 Academic career, you know, as an undergraduate, as a graduate student, telling yourself that if I wait till the last minute, that's when my inspiration is going to come. 

And sometimes you pull off something decent, but then those times come when you can't pull it off and then you, you really suffer the consequence, you know, and so really learning that for me earlier in my career, that was a big part of my own self sabotage. And really every day I still have to work at it, right? 

Because that's a vulnerable spot for me. So, whenever there are deadlines, I'm, I'm, I work so far out now because I don't want to get into that situation, but it's a conscious process to keep working on it. And similarly with attachment styles, you know, when I look back to my own childhood and those early experiences, I think that I, I had probably a more avoidant attachment style when I was younger. 

You know, now I think through my own inside and my own work, I have a more secure attachment style, but when I'm under stress, I always say like the shadows of your insecure attachment style can still come out like avoidantly attach people when they're stressed. They tend to be very isolative. They don't tell people about what's going on. They don't ask for support. And I noticed that with myself, when I'm burnt out, I just don't want to talk to people.  

And I have to really challenge myself and say, you know, you have to still connect. You still have to tell people what you need because you can't expect them to read your mind or to come around and ask you how you're doing, you know, but knowing that those are my own vulnerabilities and then always being willing to self-assess and to work on. I think that's the most important piece, but if anybody thinks that their self development work is complete, I want to meet that person. I feel like no one is there, you know.  

And  I think of myself as a lifelong learner, so I'm always learning. I'm always wanting to learn more. And even though none of us do it perfectly, every time I want to try to live each day, like with this attitude of like, what is one small thing I can improve the next day? You know, that's something that I really think about a lot recently.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I hear you on that. And it's, you know, it's that cliche, if you will, falling in love with the process. But it's not really a cliche. It's like, that's the thing, because there is no arrival.  

I am not a huge Tony Robbins fan, but he said, although, you know, thinking about it, I've listened to many of his books over time and, and they helped out a lot. But one thing he said that I heard him say more recently, he's like, “you can't sit at the table of success for too long.” You start, it's not success anymore. And I think about like some of the, the research on people who sell their businesses and they're actually, they have more money than they've ever had in their life and more time than they've ever had in their life and their risk of depression is high. 

Judy Ho: It's crazy. Exactly. Yeah, that makes sense though, to some degree too, because then there's a lot more time for self-assessment, you know, You're not just busy all the time. You can't just hide everything anymore.  

Ted Ryce: Well, Judy, I would keep talking to you. I feel like I could easily go another hour here, just ask questions, but, you know, maybe we can get you back on the show again. 

That would be amazing to, to dive into a part two, something like that. And, um, but thank you so much for coming on today. And it just, I just really liked your energy, the way you talked about the attachment, the self-talk, but, yeah, you were just great today. Really appreciate it.  

Judy Ho: Thank you. I really appreciate you too, Ted. And thanks for all the work that you're doing to promote wellness for everyone.  

Ted Ryce: Thank you.