Podcast Transcription: 614: Carbs, Weight Loss Drugs, and the Future of Fitness with Danny Lennon

Ted Ryce: Danny Lennon, thanks for coming back on the show, man. It's been a while and I'm really looking forward to catching up with you.  

Danny Lennon: Man, the pleasure is all mine. Great to see you and talk to you again, yeah, it's definitely been a while, so I'm looking forward to get into whatever we get into today.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, absolutely. And now when we last spoke, actually, I don't remember what, because it was a, the COVID years, but when we were last in person, we were in, Chiang Mai, Thailand,  

Danny Lennon: Correct. 

Ted Ryce: And now you and I. Now you're Irish. I'm American. We're both still in different countries. You're in Valencia, Spain right now. I'm in Lisbon, Portugal. Talk a little bit about, cause I, because I think this relates to health in a way that People don't understand now you're now in Ireland, Ireland can't speak English because I've been trying to speak too much Portuguese here, but in Ireland, I know it's more of a European lifestyle, but I think Americans in particular, which are the biggest demographic, the biggest group of people who listen to the show. 

I think they don't understand that one, the quality of life is different and arguably healthier if we're looking at life expectancy and other, rates of disease and that type of thing. And then the other thing is that you can do this if you wanted to. So talk to me about Valencia, why did you choose it? 

How it fits into your, you've got this great podcast, Sigma Nutrition. You're all about health and fitness. This is your life. What's the connection between Valencia, Spain as a choice to live and with what you're into.  

Danny Lennon: That's actually a really interesting question. because I think a lot of times, at least in my life or in my experiences, things come about for a variety of random reasons. 

And. I think this is not necessarily different there was some conscious decision making in coming here of course but ultimately on the surface there is a sequence of events that randomly connected to leave me here in short and the stuff that maybe not so important and not speaking to your question. 

In a previous relationship i had my ex-girlfriend was Spanish and we originally moved to spain for a while and while i was there i was living in a city in the south of spain and restart to enjoy aspects of the culture which i think we will get into because they do speak to this concept of health and some of the points you touched on. 

I really started to enjoy that and ultimately when that relationship finished, decided I wanted to stay in Spain, decided I prefer cities, maybe a slightly bit bigger than the one I was living in and so ultimately took a look around, had visited some of them before.  

And in the end decided to take a chance to move to valencia because i knew i had a number of things that for me are important and i think this is what is speaking maybe to your question of everyone can take almost inventory of okay what things would we like to have in our lives day to day because can be different for everyone what are my personal preferences and then what types of places might be able to give me that and that could be a really long list and once you have that it's basically about taking a chance for a decision and then making the best of it from there that's what I've tried to do so to maybe speak to the question some of the things that. 

Maybe I had an idea about before, but certainly that probably I've learned since being here that maybe connect to your question is that as a city itself, I've really enjoyed that the well, number one, the climate makes it very easy to be outdoors quite a lot and I live quite close to the main park that runs through the city here, which is amazing. 

It's a big long stretch of park that goes probably more than one0 kilometers. It's the old riverbed that got diverted many decades ago. They made this into a big long park. So there's all lovely roots to go for a run and nice scenery and lots of football pitches and that type of stuff running through this park and so it's very easy to get outdoors and do things so there's a practical point again that's something necessarily unique to this place but it's something i certainly enjoy the other part that i think is maybe interesting that speaks to some of the points you raised in your experience was there's aspects of the culture here that i quite like that i do think have Some connection to health generally there's quite a good social nature to how people tend to live their lives here a lot of it is about spending time with friends and family whether that's meeting up for a drink or something to eat or things like main lunch and dinner each day are centered around a social gathering oftentimes.  

And there is a lot of where people meet up with someone for a coffee. It's generally is for a decent period of time to have a chat. And anytime there is maybe food or drink involved, it's in a different way. 

It's a slower pace, which has some benefit as well when we're talking about eating or consuming alcohol but there is a big deal made around that kind of social element so i think that it has a connection what i would say is because of course this is something that people can cultivate in any city in any country right and there's people that have are doing all those things that do live in the united states are doing that very consciously and similarly there are people that live in europe in these different countries that don't have those beneficial aspects to the lifestyle but what i think maybe you're. Are you touching on or referring to is that by default without consciously thinking about it many people are maybe more likely to slip into some beneficial habits here. 

Or, not so beneficial habits in other places, depending on what the typical thing that is done. And so I think there maybe is something to that. It's not something I've thought about too deeply to give a real considered opinion, but I do think there is something potentially to that. But from my own experience, I think, yeah, culturally, there's some nice elements to it. 

Some other things maybe we can get into, but like the way people approach, food and drink here is very different from my experience growing up as well that all maybe a line to a lifestyle for me right now. I'm enjoying  

Ted Ryce: Nice, Danny. Yeah. a couple of things come to mind with this conversation. 

One is that. there's a lot of talk in the United States in particular about processed foods and how they're really bad for health and how scientists engineer chemicals so that you over consume foods like potato chips, cookies, et cetera. And I remember being in Seville or Sevilla and, we went to, I was with my ex-girlfriend there, speaking ex-girlfriends. 

She, her and I, we went to the oldest pastry shop in Seville and it was from like the one 800s or maybe even the one700s. I don't remember. It was old. And I was just thinking there's another word for food scientists creating like a concoction of chemicals that makes you eat something and then come back for more. 

It's called, being a chef. It's called being a chef and now, and to be honest, I don't really, I like Cheetos, but I don't really like a lot of junk food generally, and this stuff, it tastes much better, these pastries from the shop. And I was just like, man, this is a, been a thing going on for a long time, Americans, especially the ones who haven't traveled to say a place like Spain, or maybe it wasn't for a long time. 

They weren't really paying attention. Whereas you and I, spent many months or maybe even years, in these places, it's like in Lisbon, there's a pastry shop on, oh, I don't, I want to say every corner. Obviously, that's not true, but like on the corner of the block that I'm on, there's a pastry shop. 

They also sell coffee and sandwiches. Then the next block, there's a pastry shop on the corner also sells, coffee and sandwiches. And it's just like these places there's pastry shops everywhere here. But you look around. And we already know statistically, it's nowhere near what the United States is with obesity and certainly there's a lot of things in the United States as well. 

A lot of, Dunkin Donuts and processed food places, but it's even easier to get to in these places. You don't have to get in your car. And drive around. And I was just thinking isn't that fascinating? I would say I know I'm talking about the States here, but, and I don't know how much time you spend in the States, but it just floors me to think about like the, things we think about in the States in particular. 

And I, know people in the UK say this as well. I'm not sure about Ireland, but it's cause UK, I feel are just parroting all the crazy nutrition influencers from the States. And same thing in Australia. I feel like we lead the world in fit fitness and nutrition, misinformation, conspiracy theories probably as well. 

And so just, do you have any thoughts on that? Why do you think a place like the United States, everybody's, the food's not even that good. I always, people say they come to Europe and, of course, Europe's not a country. It's group of countries. In an area, but they always lose weight. 

Americans say that for me, I always lose it. I find it easier to be in shape in the places I find myself in the United States. So food's not that interesting. Whereas I have, a pastel de nata or today I had a slice of chocolate cake where I'm hanging out with this American dude I met here, who just moved here eight months ago to Lisbon with his, his, wife, I had a piece of, the best chocolate cake in the world is what they said. 

I don't know if it's that good, but it was pretty good. And so do you have some thoughts on that? You can say no,  

Danny Lennon: I can. Yeah, no, I definitely can give thoughts. I don't know how, considered they'd be or what people will make of them. One thing I would start with though, is that, I do think sometimes it's important because I. 

Sometimes when these types of conversations I see online, there can be almost an idealization of, oh, how great Europe is. And everywhere here is so much more healthy and nobody is overweight or is living with obesity. And it's just certainly not the case. And we can look at this statistically or just from a logical point of all those same problems are also in, every. 

Country in europe so there is a significant level of our much higher level than we would like of people living with obesity for example rates of type 2 diabetes and so on so those things still exist there is certainly not and that goes for every other element of lifestyle and societies it's not that all these countries are great and the US is terrible those types of things i think are also tend to come from maybe people who have had a beneficial experience but maybe haven't really thought through all that, that every place is going to have pros and cons in the same way that we could look at many, situations in the U. S. where it's very, people can lead very healthy lives or have access to even more positive health promoting behaviors, right?  

Ted Ryce: Why do you feel like there's more access to food in the states if you're in Miami and there's no whole foods here? As an example, or anything like that.  

Danny Lennon: Yeah. And if you think of people who are into even sports or the amount of sporting facilities that are available to people of high of real high level, it's almost everywhere in most US cities. So, I would first leave at that point. But there is, like you say, without doubt, there is when we look at statistically differences in the prevalence of people living with obesity or with type 2 diabetes or so on the US tends to be at the top end of those lists. There's a number of reasons that all are going to have some degree of a role that are coming to together on this with relation to food specifically, I think, as you've noted. 

It's not going to be because there is one nutrient that is getting us right there. Whether people want to talk about sugar or when they want to talk about fat in the diet, or they want to talk about salt, or they want to talk gluten, all these things exist in all these countries. And as you noted, and all these. 

If you go to a pastry shop here, you're going to get a pastry that has gluten and saturated fat and sugar and seed oils or whatever people want to talk about right so those things are there one of the main differences people will note i'm sure this is being your experiences when you're going from places that not everywhere but in general and i would say on average the portion sizes are significantly different. 

Of what is a typical portion. So, when you are going for something, that again, we would consider as food that you're not going to have all the time, but whether you're having a pastry or a milkshake, or you're going to eat out for dinner, or you're having a dessert after dinner, typically people tend to notice that there's significant differences in what might a normal portion size be considered between countries. 

I think that's one factor. Another factor. Again, depending on the city and depending on the country because as you know that Europe is not one place and there's a whole bunch of countries with all their own culture all very different similarly within one given country there's different regions that have different ways of living in the same way that in the US it's very hard to say the US when we consider how different it is from state to state and even cities within a state but if we're talking in generalities, there has been noted differences in let's say The use of cars to get around certain cities where you see it's just not possible to get around without being a car owner in certain cities and there's differences from country to country and city to city that could be another factor that play some degree of a role. 

I think there's a larger societal issue that again could be a whole discussion that we probably are going to get into here but that relate to social economics and particularly disparities in health and wealth that while. We can definitely see from an economic standpoint and the amount of money in the US is incredible. 

The disparity between the top and the bottom is significant and in situations where you have, let's say, high levels of poverty, you have high levels of food, poverty and poor behaviors and, related or not poor behaviors, but poor outcomes related to that as well. But these are just a few of the factors that could be playing a role. 

You have differences in regulations, you have differences in the food supply and so on. But this is to say there's a myriad of factors that these are just generalities and averages we're talking about. But I do think it's a confluence of all those things together. And it's to say that it's not because the difference between, let's say, obesity rates is not because one country consumes more gluten or seed oils than the other, for example. 

So, I think, yeah, this, it goes to show that all the factors that tie into some of these, relationships with, health are more global and related to an overall lifestyle and pattern that people tend to have.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. And thanks for bringing up the nuances and adding the, what would you call the provisos and all those things? 

Because I think it's important and I'm not trying to glorify Europe because I have my issues with it as well. For example, in Portugal, what I feel comfortable dealing with a serious health issue, if I was struggling with it, I don't think I would, I personally, I would go back to the States and, be treated there, I'm just speaking, of course, generally, and not being in that situation right now, but that's my general feeling.  

I feel like there's so many great things. But I also think that, just what we're talking about, I think Americans, and sorry to keep coming back to that, but as that is the demographic of, that's who mostly listens to the show. 

And, and I think it's mostly people in California last time I checked, but it's so funny. For example, in, in the States, I feel like it's such a young country and people just make stuff up. For example, you brought up the seed oils. Another thing is like carbs make you fat. It's you and I, Danny, we ate a lot of carbs in Thailand. 

So if you, anyone who would just go to Asia, any country in Asia, really Southeast Asia, let's say, because those are the countries I'm more familiar with. But you're like, obviously that cannot be true. Even though, like you mentioned, all places, Thailand, which is where you and I hung out at, has an issue with obesity. 

It's really clear when you, yeah, anyway, so I was just going to say, the people who I saw there were obese tended to be have more money. And, they were, shopping at nice places and yeah, anyway, again, not statistical analysis at a high level, but just observational for what that's worth. But the point is, if you, look at the statistics, it cannot be because of carbs yet. 

So many people still believe that. So, I had a doctor argue with me on Twitter. I don't know where he's a doctor in a different country, not sure where, because I didn't recognize the language, maybe the middle east somewhere, but he was trying to explain to me how insulin is the fat storing hormone and insulin, you can only store fat when insulin is high and you can't store fat when insulin is low. And as we all know, carbs cause a higher release of insulin than other macronutrients, although protein does it as well. And it's just, it's so funny. If you're listening right now, please pay attention. When you travel, you'll see people breaking the rules. 

The French paradox is not really a paradox. They just eat smaller portions and they walk more, right? And this is really all there is to it. I don't know. Do you have anything else to follow up with on that?  

Danny Lennon: I would say that while I think you noted earlier that oftentimes, as with many things, generally, I would say in the Western world, particularly in English speaking countries, but also just more generally nowadays, because of how globally connected we are, the U. S. Does have a very strong influence on trends in other countries and within the fitness and nutrition sphere that is pretty much the case and the people that are gonna be popular within the US are gonna be popular worldwide are gonna influence them people in other countries who then are gonna promote the same ideas and so it's the same things that you are talking about people spread within the US are spread everywhere.  

And I've seen that in pretty much every country when you're looking at nutrition and health information, unfortunately, there are some of those same things. that doctor that you just mentioned is talking about the same things Gary Taubes wrote about 20, 25 years ago that we've, unfortunately, are still now discussing about insulin and carbohydrates and so on. 

Ted Ryce: So tiring,  

Danny Lennon: but it's the same thing, whatever it is, that is the trend of the day, whether that's ultra processed foods or. Seed oils are the kind of big things right now they're going to be talked about everywhere and so i don't think it's a uniqueness it's just the fact that given the just the size number one but also the influence of content and information that comes from the US that's going to get filtered down everywhere else and so that's certainly still present here but i just, I think in the same like you mentioned that there's some of these elements where the people who are outside of this kind of fitness bubble that don't listen to stuff and i just gonna be eating and living in a way that is more related to what they typically done, aren't going to be worrying about these things that aren't necessarily the case this is not to say that nothing in nutrition is important but as you know that often times things that sound more controversial are the things are gonna spread and do well because they have this shock factor as opposed to, Hey I'm gonna write a book about how you should eat more vegetables and it was like yeah i've heard that before i don't really want to hear it so yeah and nothing that is more than that really  

Ted Ryce: yeah and i'll tell you something I want to talk a little bit about this because. The, influencer thing and also I want to tie it into something that you're into where you, and I forgot the person who you wrote it with, but you just wrote a book on weight cutting for MMA and boxing. And so one of the things that I wanted to talk about. When it comes to, I'll say it like this. I was talking to a client the other day and we were having this discussion. 

He wants to get really lean and I'm helping him do that. And he started performing poorly in the gym. I was like, so what you're, what's your goal right now? Number one goal. What is it? I want to get leaner. I want to get leaner. And he's a great client, by the way, medical doctor. Great client, highly motivated, just a machine of a man, but we were having, having this discussion and he said, yeah, but my gym progress, it's, I'm like going down a little bit on reps. 

I had to lower the weight a couple and I was like, so what you're trying to get leaner, but it got us to this behind that idea. I think. And of course, I'm, using my client who's amazing, by the way, as the, the person in this conversation who believes this thing, but I showed him what Hugh Jackman had to do when he did his first or an act, not his first, but, he did a scene in Logan. 

Because I couldn't find the new one that he was in Wolverine. I know he looks super shredded and jacked in it, even though I haven't seen it yet, but he was talking about, okay, I'm already in good shape. And then there's this 3 month process. I figure out what day what's the day I'm going to have my shirt off. 

And then I go through this process of leaning out and then he dehydrates himself. He does water loading. And, that's something that you talked about in, when I worked with an MMA client, the only MMA, professional MMA fighter who I've worked with, I got your, I think it was more like an ebook back in the day and helped her with that. 

And we did water loading to help her make weight. And people don't know this stuff exists. They also don't know that Hugh Jackman looks like, whatever you think, like the model of how every man wants to look and also feel, but in the reality, he's super dehydrated. He feels like crap. If you measured his inflammation levels, they'd probably be up. 

If you'd measure his testosterone, it would probably be quite low, with what we know from some of the studies done on prep, bodybuilding preparation on natural athletes, right? Natural non bodybuilders who don't take steroids. Cause your testosterone is going to be what it, whatever the dosage is for those guys. 

But for natural athletes, they're testosterone tanks and they feel awful and they look awful. I'm sorry, they look amazing, but they're feeling awful. Can you just talk a little bit about the disconnect between what we see in the media as Oh, this shredded 6 percent guy must, Be able to have sex 20 times a day. 

And, it's like this idea that we have, like the guy who looks the way we want to look, doesn't feel the way like we don't, there's a bit of a disconnect there. So can you speak to that a little  

Danny Lennon: bit? Yeah, there's a few different threads that are probably different things that we can touch on, depending on how deep we want to get into any of them. 

I think one that we can maybe put it to the side for a moment, maybe return to if it's of interest is generally just thinking about what you said of At one level it's a degree of marketing and pressure from society with these implicit messages of this image of this body is good or this is what health looks like or this is what being in this case a real man looks like the more muscle mass more shredded you are this is what vitality and strength is and so therefore the more shredded you are the more of that you are going to be. 

And then on the other side with typical body image messaging that is headed towards women generally tends to be even more pervasive during throughout society with again these implicit messages and that here is a certain size or shape that you need to have in order to be considered good in the eyes of society that say that's a whole topic that's really interesting i think very pertinent to how the industry moves forward. 

In one sense. So there is that type of messaging that is given out. There is then this idea that, like you said, surely the, leaner, someone is, and therefore we can see more of their muscle mass. That's a sign that they're really, strong. And this again, depends on there's limits to that, right? 

So as someone maybe who has a significant body fat to lose and they start losing some of that, they. Are you gonna see some beneficial things i got more energy now i feel better so my health symptoms are resolved those things can happen right in many situations. But like you said there's a limit and this is particularly start pushing towards extremes so the most extreme case, again, that you outline is like in competitive bodybuilding, where you are literally getting down to the limits of how lean an athlete can be, and this is seen on that. Their leanest point, therefore, is going to be when they step on stage and their most important competition. That's when they want to have their body fat levels at their very lowest. 

And as that on that day, if we were to get a blood test from that person, We would see that guy's testosterone would be through the floor on that particular day if we then brought that person that same day into the gym,  

Ted Ryce: like maybe even double digits, right? I've seen double digits.  

Danny Lennon: Right? It, some of it is crazy. Yeah. Of how low it can get. or the same, these are guys who are incredibly strong, right? If you take the top bodybuilding athletes in the world and throughout the year when they're doing their training blocks, if we were to look in what they're maybe typically squatting or doing a leg press or a bench press can be really, impressive, right? 

Because they're building a lot of muscle. But when they're going through their dieting phase and when they step on stage, their lean is particular point. Yeah. Both their but their calories have been low for a significant period of time to get that. But also there are now so low and body fat that has this knock on effects that if we were to bring them into the gym that day that they're on stage and ask them now, let's see what you can bench and squat today. 

The performance is going to be terrible so their insurance so this is a kind of extreme example of what you were speaking to with your client that there is a certain point that the more you move towards the extremes of changing body composition that say getting leaner the further you move towards that by nature you have to move away from a competitive goal because to do those things would we're literally doing the opposing. 

I think that we normally do if you took an athlete who is, let's say, playing football or basketball, right? And you want to say, okay, how can we feel this athlete the best we can for the games that are coming up? You would have the meeting ton of calories, ton of carbohydrates, having lots of fluids, really taking So, you Everything you can do to maximize the energy reserves are gonna have for their game that's coming up right if you're going through a dieting phase and actively trying to lose body fat you're doing many of those things the opposite you're purposely getting someone to under eat calories. 

That means you couldn't give them as many calories or carbohydrates as you would like to that would probably promote better performance so there's those things that are going on that at those limits it's always going to be a trade off and i remember many years ago i wrote an article on the website called the. 

The triangle of focus, I think I called it. So it was just a way to visually represent this idea. We've talked about that. If we can imagine a triangle, there's those three points. And if we name those three points as the common three goals, a lot of people have, it's often a mix of these, but there's three goals we can think about right body composition, performance and health. 

And now, if we imagine we put a dot in the middle of that triangle, so when that dot is in the middle of the triangle. That dot is our focus and that's equal from all those three points. So when it's in the middle of the triangle, it's equally distant from health performance and body composition. Now what happens when we move that dot of focus towards any one of those points by nature has to move away from the other two. 

So the further we go to the extreme of that point, It's going to move away from the others. So as an example, as we've just, we've discussed, if you are going to the extreme of body composition, what is that? That's getting absolutely shredded, stepping on stage with the lowest body fat someone can have. 

That would be the extreme point of that triangle in the direction of body composition. That point is now further away from health. It's also further away from performance. There are two examples we gave with someone's blood values and their gym performance. The same thing if we want to move completely towards athletic performance, that might mean moving slightly away from those two other things, right? 

So now we want to get an athlete who's maximally going to perform. That means we probably don't want to have them absolutely at their leanest possible because there's some benefit for them being able to have more calories. Also, just performing at a higher body fat percentage is going to be useful. So we're going to move slightly more towards performance. 

And also we'd probably like to have lots of practices that if we're being super strict from a health standpoint, we wouldn't recommend to the average person. So if I have an elite level athlete and I want to have them consuming lots of beverages during and after training that contain rapid acting sugars and lots of sodium to replenish their electrolytes and so on, that's not something that we're going to recommend from a health standpoint. 

And so we're moving it. Where is our focus anyone time point the same if someone is at the point where they want the balance of all three there somewhere in the middle if you want to really go towards health we're gonna be have less focus on those other two goals and that would probably give you a better. 

It's a overall health perspective but it would probably drop your focus down on your performance and your body composition and that would probably give you the benefits of greater health longevity and so on and so we can see that to be the case. When we think of the difference between someone who trains and exercises regularly for health purposes versus the types of things elite level olympic athletes have to do that say what their training performance often are compromising health at some point because in those situations it is worth it to do that for that period of time and so that's just one way for people to conceptualize that. 

There's always going to be this trade off. It's not about one necessarily better than the other, but in your context, where is your focus at one particular time? And that there's going to be a trade off. You can't have all three, optimized, at one particular point.  

Ted Ryce: put. So if you're listening right now, just understand, and this is what I tell my clients too. 

So we run a body transformation, right? Body composition, recomposition, if you want to say like program. And I have to get into these. Conversations where clients sometimes are like, Hey, I want to do the, I'm also doing CrossFit a couple of times or doing this other thing or playing tennis. And I'm like, listen, your performance there is going to go down. 

If you want to maximize your progress here, it's not a good time to be competitive. you have to choose like you're saying your focus. What is your focus? And then the type of client that we get certainly body composition is going to drive them towards better health outcomes because the type of client we get 20, 30, 40, 50 pounds overweight. 

And blood work, that's usually a mess. So getting their blood work or I'm sorry, getting their body fat down, it improves things, but to your point, like you can't with performance that you can't expect much in terms of that. And it's a really bad idea. Also from another perspective, exercise is a double edged sword because it can cause your appetite to go up. 

You're trying to stay on a low calorie diet. You're trying to train a lot. Your appetite goes up. It's different for every person. Some people don't have a problem, but I've had very obese clients struggle with that. And then we just backed off exercise and all of a sudden the fat started flying off, right? 

They started getting results again, and they weren't struggling to do it. Because the battle, I think you'll agree, Danny, that the battle of fat loss is really, yeah, it's calories in calories out, but it's hunger. That's the big issue, right? And so it's about managing hunger to get as lean as, as you want to get. 

If that, if it's a health goal or maybe a health goal that transitions into an aesthetic goal. So thanks for saying that. It's really important to understand the differences there. You can't be the person who performs their best, has the best health and at your leanest. It's just not something that's physiological, physiologically possible. 

Danny Lennon: Yeah. it's the same with virtually anything, right? Everything is a, trade off. If you're going to try and maximize one thing by nature, that has to mean that you can't maximize some other things. Now that doesn't mean that for most people, that's not really going to be a major consideration because for example, like you said, if you take someone who maybe hasn't got a really much of a background, in exercise, maybe he does want to start exercising and eating better to improve their health in both those in most situations you can do all three of those and in fact that's what will happen that will benefit someone right. So let's say someone is living with obesity doesn't do much exercise now we get the moving and now they're starting to. 

Eat more healthily now we start to see body composition is improving because they're now training with you in the gym they're lifting some weights are getting some muscle but they're also losing a body fat because they're in a calorie deficit so not only is a body composition improving but because of that their health is probably improving because we're seeing these. 

Improvements in their blood pressure their blood glucose their ldl cholesterol and so on and at the same time this person is probably massively improving their. Athletic performance because they're coming from a perspective where they maybe haven't done much before and as they continue to train they're going to be getting better able to do more from an insurance capacity are getting stronger in the gym and even then as that weight comes off those things will become easier as well if we're talking about doing let's say someone going for a walk for example or going for a jogg as body weight decreases that will start to be something that will feed into them being able to do that and improve their performance in those things as one example. 

So in many cases it is possible to improve all those three so rather that the point of this kind of triangle of focus concept is as you push towards any one of those extremes is where you start moving away from the others and so what are those extremes will be the extreme of body composition or extreme level of high end performance or the extreme end of health is where your focus solely on that and you don't do anything to compromise any aspect of it. 

And they're there for when, as the further you move towards each of those points, you're going to move away from this kind of middle ground. I do think that's worth pointing out. I do think the other thing then is, as with everything, like you said, it's. In most of these situations is about a set of behaviors. 

That is going to be the most important thing. There's no other, it's the same set of behaviors that we know we're trying to, maximize that. How can we have someone that is in general eating an overall healthy dietary pattern is being generally physically active, throughout their day. Not just with some training sessions, a few times a week. 

Yeah. That is being mindful to try and get the best quality sleep they can for their particular circumstances in the situations within their current life right now and all these things that are these types of behaviors are going to promote health and so in those situations those are things that will improve your health even. 

When there, before there's a certain degree of weight loss, or even if you don't achieve a degree of weight loss that someone is planning, those things are still going to have a knock on benefit if someone is still exercising, that's still going to benefit their health, right? Or if they're now change your diet that their level of sodium is reduced, their blood pressure is still going to improve. 

And so we can do a lot of these things together. It's not a one thing or the other. And I think that's where the value of focusing on those behaviors really kicks in. And like you say, when it comes to diet and particularly trying to, if someone does have a weight loss goal, let's say, and the challenge of that, because that is a considerable challenge. 

It does speak to your main point of the hunger that is there, particularly in cases where someone is living with obesity is a significant challenge that I think many people don't understand. And it's the reason why we see such success now with the GLP one receptor agonist drugs like Ozempic, for example. 

That these are proof to us that the issue for many people if not most was never that they just didn't want enough for what motivated or what trying to healthy in fact they were doing all along the problem was that there was just a hunger that is almost impossible to deal with and now once we have a medication that can take care of that hunger aspect now it's possible for people then to be able to go and follow the dietary recommendations we're giving and then be able to keep that going because the hunger is taken care of and so I think that speaks very much to the point that was the issue not that people necessarily didn't know what to do or just didn't want to do it or any of these. 

Types of claims that people may put out. So they're just a few thoughts that came to mind. on the last thing you said,  

Ted Ryce: And you reminded me what the, other point that I was trying to make in the point that I was going to share was that this stuff is nuanced. A lot of the principles, they're very simple, right? 

Cowery deficits. Progressive overload. A lot of the things that we talk about are really simple, but there's a lot of nuances. For example, you were talking about people, in the way you phrased it was living with obesity, taking GLP one agonist. Yeah, someone tried to argue with me on that. And I was like, I don't deal with people with that level of obesity, right? 

Okay. Like you have to have a BMI of 30 and above, if you, want to get that prescribed, it's typically not my, some of my clients are there, but most of the clients are not. And, I don't know if you would find it surprising, but I run a right fat loss coaching program for lack. It's way more than that. 

But if we wanted to simplify it, that's what it is. And I'm not opposed to the, I know a lot of people are outspoken about it. I'm not opposed to, in fact, there I've worked with some people and there were the more extreme cases and I've told one, one guy think of, two. Actually, I told, listen, go to a bariatric doctor and get on this. 

We've worked together to try to make changes. It's not working for you. Get on this. And then we can, talk about it, but I feel like some people, I feel like some people need it. I've also worked with some people who thought about it, did not want to do it, did not want to take a medication or get a bariatric surgery and wanted to do it the old fashioned way. And now we're starting to even get clients where they've lost. let's say 50 pounds or whatever it is using a GLP one agonist. And now they want coaching because they want to see if they could get off of it. They want to see if maybe stay on it, but get better results because they haven't been taking exercise as seriously. 

And Yeah. I think it's interesting times. I, I'm glad you brought it up. Cause I should talk about it more. I really don't. I guess it's because I'm not so passionate about the topic, but coming back to the point I was trying to make, there's a lot of nuance here and that's what makes it so hard. 

You may hear something and it's not right for you. For example, you may hear Ozempic and you're like, Oh, maybe I need that. My appetite is out of control, but you look at the body fat level and maybe it's 23%. It's not for you. there's an argument there, but you can't get it legally. You have to buy it on the black market. 

Danny Lennon: Yeah. it's an interesting topic because I think it, what it has done where you see extreme positions on it is free for me, at least highlights people that have, I ideological positions on this rather than just looking at the evidence. And so it's clear, like when you look at some of the trials on this, it. 

It really is incredible compared to any other intervention that we've had previously to tackle obesity and it ticks all the boxes for what we would like to see up to this point. The safety profile looks really good. and And again, some of the pushback on some of the points to me don't make sense because we wouldn't say that about other types of medications, right? 

We wouldn't say to someone, Oh, there's no point in prescribing someone a blood pressure medication because they can't just take it for a few weeks and stop. They have to keep taking it. And the blood pressure is under control and we can also do other things to help. And I think this is a what you're seeing with some of these. 

And again, as you said, there are criteria that people meet. You do this in conjunction with your physician. And if you and your physician come to a agreement that is something you would like to do and you meet that criteria, then you can do that. And again if someone doesn't want to do that is also their choice but the evidence on the ability for them to have the effects that we're seeing is significant much more than any other intervention that we have seen and it's not that it is those versus lifestyle and diet because that's the claim people I think. 

Typically come to and why they're against it's Oh, this is teaching people just to eat crap all day, take this and they don't have to do anything, but that is not what is happening in the real world. And I've talked to two doctors who work with people specifically on their lifestyle, who are also using these medications and it's allowing people to stick to those lifestyle and diet recommendations. 

That's what it's allowing them to do. And so what they're finding is this is what first allows people to manage their hunger. Then when that is done at the same time, now they can start following those diet and exercise recommendations are being given. And now finally they can actually stick to them long enough to be able to continue and what happens when that happen and people start enjoying it more start seeing more rewarding progress and then start getting more and more into that and then suddenly becomes a long term habit and so it's not one thing against the other and sometimes i feel that's the some type of fear or ideology people have that if somehow someone is taking a medication like this that means they're rejecting diet and lifestyle changes but that's not really What's happening in many cases and certainly isn't what most reasonable people would advise, I think. 

And so I think there's a big opportunity, particularly for people in the fitness industry to align themselves with doctors who are able to help patients in this situation and say, look, the best of both worlds would really be our ideal strategy here. And, that, that is really what I see probably as the, the way forward here where someone that is on a medication like this is also then going to be improving their diet, improving their exercise, their sleep, all these behaviors that we've, been talking about, but now that risk of, weight regain is gone away compared to what it used to or relapsing for lack of a better term on their, diet that had brought them success and so on. 

Again, there's, if someone meets the criteria and this decision they want to go with based on their discussions with their doctor, there's, good evidence for this now. And, it's certainly there should be no shame involved. If someone does take that decision that based on their doctor's advice, this would be a useful strategy for them. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. I will also say I have mixed, mixed feelings about it a little bit in terms of I would say for the more extreme cases where people, where you're just, you know, especially when you see people who are, let's say they're five foot five and they weigh 300 pounds, it's is that because they're lazy or don't know that? 

No, that is, there's something going on there, right? There's something going on there. And, from everything that we can tell, it's like the appetite regulation is just out of control. I think there's other situations where and I'll say it like this, cause I, here's my thinking. I think some people I'll just use the guy that, that, reached out to me. 

He wasn't doing any, he was doing very little exercise. He lost weight on Ozempic. And then he wanted to get into a more regular, thing. I think it's good. He got there. And did something because I also think that a big part of it is psychological with people. Like I can't do this. I can't beat this. 

There's nothing I can do. And then all of a sudden it's I took this pill and then all now I can control my appetite. I'd say that there is, again, we don't have any, we're just having a conversation here. We don't have hard data to back these things up, or at least I don't with what I'm saying, but it's okay, I feel like the answer for a lot of people would be to go move, let's say we take that person who's been struggling with their appetite. They're a hundred pounds overweight. We moved them to Bolivia and have them or Africa, West Africa. They hang out with, the hods in West Africa have to hunt, gather, walk 20, 000 steps a day to eat food or put them down with this money. In Bolivia, it's like that person, maybe their body mass index is higher than the rest of the tribe, perhaps, there's going to be a significant difference. 

However, the situation, the way I see it again, it's just a perspective. And again, I'll go back to the U S It's like people live lifestyles that are completely just, they're very sedentary, get less. I have clients who get 3000 steps per day and they're going out to dinner. Now I'm not dealing with, I just want to say this because again, going back to that point about nuance, I'm not talking about people who are under, we're, not talking about people who are, living in financially really tough situations and in dealing with food deserts, I'm talking about people who are, let's say upper middle class or up, and they're making a good living, they're working like crazy food is like the thing that they're doing when they're not sitting on their butt working. 

And then there's alcohol, which, everybody talks so much about sugar, but for some reason, alcohol doesn't get demonized nearly to the extent that sugar is. And there's way more evidence showing how, detrimental it can be on, so many different levels. And so it's you don't walk, you barely exercise, you eat a ton of food because your appetite isn't regulated.  

We know from, a bunch of different studies that the more, exercise helps regulate appetite. It's not just choosing satiating foods. And so it's you're living this life that's just out of, totally out of sync or what, back in the, paleo days, the, gene environment mismatch, We're just not equipped to handle. Like you and I were sitting on our butts right now in front of screens. And I've been doing this for, I've been sitting here for hours, right? And it's just, we're dealing with these situations. So I think helping people understand, Hey, listen, yeah, your appetite is out of control, taking this pill it's going to help. It's going to help you lose weight, but also understanding, I don't think the message is like, Hey, the way you're living, it's completely. goes against, I'm not no judgments, right?  

Not saying that you're a bad person for doing it, but, and, we're all doing it to some extent, but this lifestyle that we're living, it's just out of sync with, not to sound like a paleo diet proponent, right? 

Or primal living because I like the internet and sitting in nice chairs, although this one doesn't happen to be nice. It's hurting my butt right now after so many hours of sitting, but it's we're living these lifestyles. It's optimized for, the digital economy or whatever you want to call it. 

It's not optimized for health and it's just, it's pushing us away from that. And so that's what I would say. Just understand that. And if you're not, if you're tracking your steps, you're getting your steps or 5, 000 or less, which that's according to some of the data that I looked at, that's what the average American is, getting right. 

How good that data is. Can't tell you, but, that's, what I would say. It's like the average Americans getting, let's say, less than 5, 000 steps, not doing enough exercise. And even for the folks that I work with, they're not, pounding white chocolate covered pretzels. They're just, eating a lot of other food, going out to dinner a lot, right? 

Financially, people who have certain level of financial success. And to your point, Danny, these aren't lazy people. Building a business or running a company, even if it isn't their own is being an executive in a company. It's like all the clients that we have are rock stars, super intelligent, smarter than me, right? 

Certainly more successful than I am. And yet they're struggling with this. So I just wanted to share that. Do you have any followup thoughts on that? Any disagreements or agreements?  

Danny Lennon: For me, it's I would just reiterate one of my previous points that I don't think there's really a need for this to be framed as one or the other. 

And there's because it's going to be depending on the case as well. So there's some cases where and many cases where. This medication of getting these injections is going to be literally life changing and without that person may not have had the possibility of even getting those results that is the case for a number of these people for the other situations and I can understand the argument of, look, there's this person here and they're not doing any of the lifestyle behaviors we'd recommend to their diet or their sleep or their exercise and so why should they take this medication before trying to do all the other things first thing and what's exhausted those attempts from a lifestyle perspective then we can talk about that, this from a medication some point. There's two things there that might be worth considering first is the point that I think you raise is that initially particularly if someone has a significant amount of weight to potentially lose that initial motivation. 

And if they can get that star of like your client that was able to use a medication that allowed him to reach to get that star lose significant weight and then start getting interested in oh hey now i actually feel better i've lost some weight now it's maybe easy for that person easier for that person to go and walk and run without getting pain in their joints or now they're getting interested in hearing more about the things you want to say about diet or training, or now finally they're not don't have those same sensations that were preventing them from even following some of the nutrition things you told them before and now that has been their gateway into following all those things and now they have the best of both worlds and so i think those things can be done together.  

So that is that's one case where I think that would be our kind of great if we can get a place where those things are done together that this is an initial motivator or help that allows someone to go and follow all these lifestyle things and then they're going to be doing all the things you want so we no one has any problems. 

The other cases a bit more complicated because people maybe object to wear that say someone does want to just go with medication and maybe isn't trying any lifestyle stuff. From my perspective. I don't want to make any, judgments on what factors in that person's life are leading them to not be able to do those things or not, because there's plenty of things in my lifestyle that I don't follow to a T that I know would improve my health that all of us do right in terms of our levels of physical activity of having jobs that are more sedentary of having times where we do want to go out and eat foods in portions that are greater maybe than we should or drink alcohol with friends and so on. 

Now for that, for if someone has a different threshold for what is useful for them. Okay. If we do have, let's say a medication that person can use that does, then without them, maybe consciously then having to, under eat then allows them to regulate their appetite more that naturally is going to lead to them under consuming compared to previously. 

And then they end up improving their health from that. We see improvements in their cholesterol or glucose or blood pressure because they've started that medication, even though they haven't followed all those lifestyle behaviors yet, their health is still improved. So is that then has that been a waste of time for that person? 

I would think that would be a kind of difficult i get to make in the same way that i said to someone should we prevent someone being prescribed statins if they have high LDL cholesterol if that person says look i'm unwilling to change my diet right now that we want to do it i don't really want to exercise. 

Are we to then say what doctor should refuse them a statin drug or someone has high blood pressure should be refused and medication if their personal choices look i don't really want to go on an exercise program at this particular point for. Whatever reasons is in that person circumstance, of course, that is not ideal. 

That's not what the message we're trying to get out to people when we're trying to give all these things about how important these lifestyle changes are, but ultimately, I think that shouldn't be a reason to then say, we need to reject anything that can help from a pharmaceutical standpoint. And I think in many of the cases, it goes back to the previous point I made, where those things are going to work together, that people most of the time are willing to do all these things already. 

They've most people that are going to get prescribed medication is have tried numerous times to improve their diet, to go through extra prison, have lost weight numerous times in the past, have gone through that cycle many times. They know what it's about. They've tried harder than probably I have ever tried in my life to be able to lose and maintain a lower body weight. And so it's a very different, thing. And I think that's the majority of those cases. And then if we can get that as an initial way for people to get into a better spot to then feel like, Oh, Hey, I can actually do this now, or now I'm able to stick to all these recommendations that are being given. 

That's a, a good place to be so that's just my opinion on this and with all the disclaimers that comes from it, but I think there's some really good people out there that talk about this issue with far more expertise in the area that people can look into a friend of mine, Dr. Spencer Nodolsky is awesome in this because he's. For decades has been one of the doctors championing lifestyle change it's been all about exercise how to get people lifting weights being more physically active changing their diet through simple dietary change that's been his whole thing for decades and. 

Now, with the combination for many of his patients of using some of these medications, can actually see that the benefit they're having and it's talked about those, but it's also an obesity specialist doctor. So it's very familiar with the research in this area as well. So he might be a good resource for people to look into if this is a topic of interest to them. and yeah, go listen to someone like him. Don't listen to me. These are just personal opinions and people don't have to agree, but I think he'd be a good person to get information on.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah,  

Danny Lennon: but yeah, they're just a few personal thoughts that come to mind  

Ted Ryce: and thanks for sharing it. We've had Spencer on the show and we're supposed to have him on again. 

And I want to talk about this, very interesting. Yeah, I don't, have strong opinions about GLP one agonist and I agree with everything that you said. And I, just to be clear, I don't know if that, if I came across. Fight, miscommunicated, but I don't think I'm fine with if people are like, I'm not really doing everything that I should do, but I just want to take a pill. 

I'm cool with that actually. And I'm also cool with Hey, I'm never going to exercise or eat well. I'm going to shove pizza and ice cream in my face. And I'm just going to take this pill and eat ice cream. I'm also cool with that. I think. not to go down, not to open up a can of worms, but I think there, there might be, a discussion about okay, what's the, ramifications on the healthcare and at large scale and, but anyway, so but I'm cool with all that. 

I just think we should be really honest about, what. And it's even hard to say that because there's so much misinformation out there, but I think just be really honest about what you're doing, where you're at. And that's all. Just be really, take an honest inventory. You know what I am? What I disagree with, about Spencer and also Spencer's brother disagrees with him. 

Is, not to talk about someone who's not here, but I'm bringing up this on purpose is, is TRT for people who don't really need it, man, I'm a little, I'm almost low. and it's just out of control. That's something that drives me batshit crazy guys wanting to get on that and they're chubby. 

It's I would be much more comfortable. I would be fine with people. let's say someone's there's a guy he's, his BMI is 30. Whatever you qualifies. And it's Hey man, let's jack you up with some teas, some tea, sipping eight, or let's do some GLP one agonist. I would choose the agonist all day long. 

It drives me the TRT conversation drives me crazy. I don't know why.  

Danny Lennon: Yeah. And I don't know. I can certainly understand where people are coming from and can have empathize that they're hearing a lot of probably inaccurate information because as  

Ted Ryce: not jacked enough, But I can't lose the body fat and I'm not jacked. 

It's bro, you're not working out right. You're eating too many calories. sit down, shut up and get to work. That's when I, that's when the hard work, that's when that stuff comes out of me, but not with GLP one agonist.  

Danny Lennon: No, but yeah, I think there's been like a, kind of a, dream sold to people. 

You see it all the time on online and different kind of some of the big podcasts where people are talking about TRT, And how, great it is in every context. And without doubt, it's helped people who do have low testosterone without doubt. and is useful. But again, there's this kind of pervasive message, like you said, of. 

Either directly or indirectly that people are receiving that, oh, everyone should be taking this. There's no downsides to this and there's only upsides when in many cases there might be some downsides. And even if not, it's not gonna be the, major change that people maybe are thinking is gonna happen because they may be looking at people who did have really low testosterone and now have got that back into a good range and that's gonna be, have a huge beneficial impact on their life. 

Or maybe they have the image of the person they met in their gym who takes testosterone, but not realizing, this is a different context. This is someone taking super physiological doses of testosterone to get super jacked. This is not the amount you're going to be getting from a standard tRT prescription. 

And so i can empathize with that because i mean who wouldn't wanna be sold something that has zero downsides that is only upside that's gonna get you absolutely jacked it's gonna make it really easy to lose weight it's gonna make you stronger have better sex drive everything is perfect. 

And that's the type of impression people are given instead of a probably as in most cases there's a balance between there's good and bad everything and it depends on the case there's all this type of nuance so it can be useful but yeah just really depends on the situation we're talking about so agree with you there. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, we'll see. I don't know much about it, to be honest. I want to get someone, on this show to talk about it as well, because I'm a bit biased when, it comes to that, I just feel like I'm okay with guys who do it, like Mike Israetel talks a lot about his, steroid use. And, he's open about it. 

I appreciate that perspective. And also Mike really knows what he's talking about, but when it comes to the average guys who talk to me on, social media, or it's I've even worked with clients who were on TRT and they needed help losing fat, right? It's just not, it's just not going to solve all your problems magically. 

Danny Lennon: Right and i think that's the main thing people are being told that are just doing nice is going to solve everything now again if someone has clinically low testosterone and they are on TRT that's probably going to improve their health and a number of these different ways without doubt but for someone who is doing this that with the intention that if i do this everything is magically going to be super easy and we'll you Change, I'm not going to need to do anything. 

That's probably not the case either. yeah, the truth is always somewhere in, in between,  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I'm trying to get my one client, on the show, but the, actually the doctor I referred to earlier, he's an oncologist and he was telling me about how, when guys have, he works with guys who have prostate cancer. 

And when those guys. Have to come off the TRT and then sometimes have to be chemically castrated. I'm open to even taking TRT eventually. but it's I really want to know, especially with the prostate cancer thing. I know some research just came out. I didn't look at it. Cause it's there's so much research going on, but research looking at TRT and in how safe it is, and it seems to be not as bad. 

According to that new research again, not don't take my word for it. I haven't read it, but I was listening to, I think maybe it even was Mike Israetel, Dr. Mike Israetel talking about it, but, yeah, it's just, I think, yeah, it's not like a panacea and, certainly as far as downsides. does it play into this prostate cancer thing and how much and then the horror stories that I've heard with people who have to come off of that and yeah,  

Danny Lennon: It's the same with many things that if you have a competent physician or endocrinologist, these are things that they all know already. So if you genuinely get a blood work done up and you have clinical hotels of testosterone and this is a potential viable treatment that doctor will talk through all those risks will probably do test to see what potential issues i can have and you can make an informed decision that's very different from just some random guy thing out. 

Everyone's talking about testosterone. There's no negatives to this. I'm just going to get it off the dude in the gym and just take a bunch of it. That's not TRT. That's you are now taking huge doses of testosterone. Probably that is very different to going through an informed thing with your doctor, getting tested and seeing where your levels are actually at and knowing, and being screened for what you need to be screened for. 

and if that is the decision that you guys make, then fine, that's great. Yeah, there's a difference in how people go about it. I think.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I'll say one more thing. I maybe it works differently, but I've, for example, I used to work with a plastic surgeon and he as a way to add on. When I say plastic surgeon, so I would, he was a client of mine back in Miami, and then he started, he did the cynogenics. 

Certification and I think it was like a week and long and then he started prescribing TRT or, let's just say prescribing testosterone and, growth hormone. I think they stopped allowing the growth hormone to happen. I don't know. I don't follow this stuff, but anyway. You learn in a weekend and of course, he's a doctor, a surgeon, but there's a lot of guys who are, doing, and I've had, I'm working with clients now, client had 500 nanograms per deciliter testosterone, not really, not low, not high, right? 

Kind of in the middle ish, but his, one of his doctors was going to give him. Testosterone, it's really easy to get in the States from a doctor and it's just why would you do that, and I guess the answer hopefully is just because the risks are small compared to what they think the benefit will be, or maybe, they feel like there's the risk is just too high. 

Nearly non existent, but I talked the guy out of it. I was like, look, I'm okay, but let's just, you're overweight. You got a belly. He's not obese or anything, but he's not in good shape and not exercising consistently and not a candidate for GLP one agonist. So I was like, dude, let's just focus on doing this. 

And if you still want to, you got how you're going to have to lift anyway, even though there's some of the research that I saw, You can put people in the gym and make them train or have them sit on the couch and give them testosterone. And I forget how much it was, but the people sitting on the couch, getting testosterone built more muscle again, don't remember the dose, right? 

I don't pay attention to, do you know that study? I think there was,  

Danny Lennon: I remember one study. I do remember one study like that. I don't remember the specific numbers, but it was, if it's one that I'm thinking of, there was, whereas, I think it was athletes taking, steroid probably was testosterone, but I can't remember it was, but it was a dose that would be far in excess of what would be for, TRT. 

And yeah, their, changes were outperformed those that just trained, I think, but it was significant. Yeah. So it would be steroid use. It wouldn't be a standard TRT dose to bring you back up to normal. Let's say if it's the same study I'm thinking about to check the name of it.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. So all things to consider and you keep saying that super physiological dose and just to, can you just say what that is? 

Because a lot of people are under them, people don't understand that difference.  

Danny Lennon: So basically, a supra physiological just simply as a name, it's you're getting your concentration of testosterone higher than they, they would are possible by your normal physiology.  

Ted Ryce: To over one2, 000 or one200.  

Danny Lennon: Yeah. So it just wouldn't be possible. 

normally, even if someone has high testosterone, no matter what they did. So you're, right.  

Ted Ryce: What do the levels go up to? Do you, how do you, I have no experience with that.  

Danny Lennon: I wouldn't be the best person to ask on that. I don't, I can't remember like what those high end of those would be, but certainly would be significantly above. 

What you are you're typically like to see and so the way you can and again all the cabinets of this is not my area of expertise but if someone is thinking about. if we have this range of testosterone where someone's testosterone should be we have a lower bound and upper bound right and if you're in there then on a typical tester testosterone is coming back as okay you're within range. 

Now someone could be towards the lower end and might be a bit worried or someone towards the higher end. I think that's great. But in general, if someone's in this range, all is okay. If someone's below that lower end point of it, that's when there might be a clinical indication of TRT. Someone then would be given a dose of that to bring them back up within that normal physiological range. 

So now gone from a kind of deficiency state back into this normal range. Going from that deficiency to normal is where you see this huge benefit because someone was clinically low, previously what you would see within when someone is taking super physiological doses is going far beyond the upper bound and something that someone wouldn't get to normally. 

And, yeah, that's the simplest way to think of that.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, thanks for that. Yeah, I actually had a client with zero testosterone. He had Klinefelter syndrome, which I've never heard of and a genetic disorder where he had. An additional X chromosome, I'm reading it right now because I don't remember the details, but his testosterone was zero. 

we were still able to make changes without that, but it was, there were some challenges. We're going to gather and he didn't want to do replacement because he had tried it before. He said that it made him aggressive, I think, or angry. I don't remember that all the details because it was  

Danny Lennon: interesting. 

Ted Ryce: Over a year ago. A couple of years ago, but, yeah, yeah, I just, people don't even realize that's something that exists. Danny, we've talked about a lot today. I really appreciate the conversation and appreciate you entertaining these, areas of, these things that I brought up without it being like your formal focus. 

But, since we're, having you on the show and just, thanks for being open to talking about these things and also qualifying, when you're an expert and when you're not, and if you want to hear more of Danny, Danny has. What I consider the number one nutrition podcast, if you're interested in, let's say science based or evidence based nutrition, it's called Sigma Nutrition Radio, and you can find it at sigmanutrition. 

com or of course on wherever you listen to podcasts. So that's Sigma Nutrition Radio, and you can find it at sigmanutrition. com. Danny, thanks so much for coming on today. Is there any other place you'd want someone to follow up with you?  

Danny Lennon: No, I think those are probably the, best places they can find some of my content. 

They can of course put my name into social media and they'll find me on, X or Twitter, and then also on Instagram, either those places of people typically are there, although I wouldn't say I'm super active, on social media. And, yeah, probably the podcast and the website is where all the resources that I have are there. 

And, yeah, like you said, It's been a nice change of pace, say, because you have certainly no expertise in, in most of these things. So hopefully people take anything I said with a grain of salt and, that these are not necessary things that advising people on.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I'll send, Spencer after you, you misspoke on about the GLP ones. 

But Danny, really, a pleasure to connect with you. You're just a great human being and you do amazing work with Sigma nutrition radio. you're someone who's helped shape my own approach and thinking on nutrition, help me help get me away from, the, let's say the more fad or, cultish nutrition groups. 

So really thank, really appreciate you and, yeah, man, let's do it again soon. Let's not wait a couple of years before we have you back on the show.  

Danny Lennon: Yeah. thanks for the chat and allowing me to ramble about these types of things and, yeah, I appreciate it.