Podcast Transcription: Natural Bodybuilding Secrets for Achieving Your Fitness Goals: Effective Muscle Growth Strategies with Cliff Wilson
Ted Ryce: Cliff Wilson, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Really excited to dive into what you do and how you help people. It's going to be great. 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, I appreciate you having me on.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. And we connected through one of your clients, Borge Fagerli. Hopefully, I got his name right this time, but he's a, he's a big deal in the strength coaching world, as you know. And, um, and as I know, I've had him on the show a couple of times and he was just talking about how you were his coach and how you helped him transform his body.  

And more importantly with bodybuilding, I think this is really important, you have a great reputation with working with natural people because when someone's taking heavy steroids or TRT, what, you know, steroids, but let's say at a lower dosage directed by a doctor, it's just going to be a very different situation because their T levels are going to be so constant because they're taking, you know, testosterone, siponate or enanthinate or whatever the testosterone ester is. So, I want to know about natural cause I'm not on anything, right? And most of my clients aren't either. So, I'm really excited to dive into that. 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, that the great thing about when somebody's using performance enhancing drugs or even t r t the great thing is that pretty much anything you do is going to work right uh... but the bad thing is that you can sometimes lose sight of what actually works the most because everything's working, right? 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, and I think people don't realize that it's such a, it's such, you can't take advice from someone who's sharing from personal experience  if they're taking drugs because it's like, they don't, they have no idea.  

Like you said, like, oh, you just got to go into the gym and work hard versus like someone like myself, man, I lose muscle really fast. If I, you know, I can kind of gain it. I don't think I'm a hard gainer and we can even talk about, you know, your perspective and what that is. But yeah, I have to be more intelligent with how I work out and how I manage my workouts. And I'm pretty on top of it because I'm in this field. 

And for some of our clients, I know you work with a lot of bodybuilders, but also with executives with high stress and they're not sleeping well and they're entertaining clients and drinking alcohol. You know, I could only imagine like, uh, you know, how that affects recovery and everything. 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, yeah, you know, and you mentioned it too, because I'm like you, I do compete in bodybuilding myself, but I'm not somebody that anybody's ever looked at and thought, yeah, this guy should be a bodybuilder.  

And I think that, you know, in some ways, and I don't need to go off on a tangent here, but in some ways, I think that actually it did make me a better coach, and I'm sure you probably feel the same way, because it's when you have to work a little bit harder than everyone else it does make you a little bit more particular about what you are doing. It makes you analyze everything. Kind of along that same route, I think a lot of times people with truly gifted genetics for muscle growth and fat loss, they don't often nitpick what they're doing because everything they're doing is working.  

So why would you nitpick it? And so, you know, it's like the gift and the curse sometimes of having some tougher genetic road is that you're forced to analyze things to a little bit of a greater degree. 

Ted Ryce: So, let's talk about that a little bit. How would someone even know if, because I feel like some people have better genetics than they realize, but they'll say, some people will say, well, I don't have good genetics. It's like, yeah, but you're not really doing anything either your workout, you're inconsistent with your workouts, you overeat.  

So, it's like, that's like saying, you know, I'm never going to be a great tennis player. It's like, well, when's the last time you played tennis? Well, you know, maybe eight years ago. It's like, yeah, no shit, but it's because you're not doing anything. So how do you, do you, do you assess your clients genetics? Like what is your process for working with someone and figuring out what is the best thing to do with them? 

Cliff Wilson: Well, first off, I think you are absolutely right about most people are very not very good at assessing their own genetics. Most of the time they just haven't put in the consistent time. You know, they may put in six months here or six months there, but as you know, to build a really impressive physique, it takes a longer period of time and consistency. 

Ted Ryce: How long would you say in your experience? 

Cliff Wilson: Well, I mean, it depends on how far you're looking to go. So, when I'm talking to my bodybuilders, now this is not for general population, but we're talking bodybuilding. I always tell them the real magic happens when you've been training for over 10 years consistently with no gaps.  

And I know that's a long time, but you know, if you're looking at, cause bodybuilding being an athletic endeavor, that's kind of on par with any other sport, right? I mean, most people that pick up a basketball, you know, you pick up a basketball in grade school or high school, you're not, you're at your peak until you've been doing it for about 10 years. 

Baseball, football, for most athletic endeavors, you're not really going to start turning into something special until you've been doing it at least a decade. So, but there are indicators to someone's genetic ability. 

I am pretty gifted when it comes to fat loss. I would say I'm on the higher end. I tend to lose fat pretty easily. I don't require a lot of cardio. There are indicators, you know, can you eat a lot more on a daily basis?  

For muscle mass, it's a little bit of a different, it's a little bit of a different thing. One, your frame matters.  There's some research by Dr. Casey Budd called the size frame model and he has logged a bunch of bodybuilding champions throughout the years.  

He took their wrist and their ankle circumferences and he did find there's a pretty significant correlation between how much total muscle mass someone can acquire based on how big their wrists and their ankles are. It makes sense, you know, it's like your body won't allow you to build so much muscle that your frame and your structure can't support it. 

And oddly enough, I mean, I don't take these measurements and I'll get to this in a second, but if oddly enough, I have measured quite a few competitors in my day, their wrists and ankles circumferences. So far of all of them I have ever taken, I'm the second lowest I've ever measured. And I still made it to be a pro natural bodybuilder.  

So, it's not a death sentence if you have low measurements on the in this size frame model. I don't often like to talk about genetic potential with my clients because I believe that sometimes it gives them mixed messages and they can get off track. It can give certain people a big head and it can discourage other people when they probably should just put their head down and work. I always kind of start with do you like doing this? Do you want to do this?  

If you like doing it, if you want to do it let's do it, let's give it our all and then we don't need to stress about things we can't control. And especially with people that have good genetics, sometimes there's a tendency to hold back in certain areas of effort because they know they can get away with it. I have good genetics, right? And then at the end of the spectrum, when people have poor genetics, it becomes a what's the point type of thing. 

And I think that what is robbed of them is learning what they are good at along the way. You learn things about yourself that you may not have known unless you gave it your all. And I, using myself as an example, as a competitor, I'm not a very big competitor.  

I'm almost always the smallest guy when I step out on stage. But the thing that I did realize along the way, is that muscular sizes and everything, and even if you're just walking around trying to build a great physique, not stepping on stage, there's still certain things that can be impressive. First off, I tend to have just a naturally inherent grainy look.  

For those that have seen my photos on Instagram and stuff, I have like a really, even when I get lean, I tend to look kind of, people always use the word freaky because it's like kind of a grainy look to me.  

And it's just a genetic thing and everyone of known and what's I'd what for right really give it my all, I tend to have a great you look at most guys my side uh... also 

Ted Ryce: What does that mean? Grainy. 

Cliff Wilson: Um, uh, textured, um, and so like some, yeah, my, my skin, my skin will be, um, it almost looks as if, and this is correlated with low body fat levels, but some people will get low body fat levels. You know, they'll get low body fat levels. They'll see abs, they'll see separation of their quads, they'll see striations in their glutes, but it's almost as if there is a look to them that, um, and you know, this is where the lines get blurred between, I don't want to delve into pseudoscience here, but some people say thick skin.  

And I don't believe there is, I don't know what this look is, I'm just going to be honest about what I do and what I don't know. I don't know what the difference is in this look, where some people, you can see all the striations, but they don't have this paper-thin skin look. And no matter how hard you dye them, some people can't seem to get that, and I get it very easily.  

And as a result, I just kind of have this like, you can see everything when it comes to my muscle tissue. And it's just genetic. I haven't done anything to earn that. But it was a gift that I didn't realize I had. The other thing is that I'm good at dieting. I can endure, I'm very disciplined and I can endure a lot of hunger to get a look that I want to achieve. 

And so, I don't know, I think had I known my genetics, if you would have told me that I had poor genetics within the first year I picked up a weight, I probably wouldn't have decided I was going to be a bodybuilder and I would have been robbed of so much by being prevented from going down this path. So, I don't try to nitpick my clients' genetics. I just say, if you like doing this, you want to do it, let's just do it and you're going to build something impressive at the end of it. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me because it can, you know, I see this in talking about, I deal, you know, it's fascinating. I just want to say this before we go on here. It's always fascinating to talk about someone who is an expert in something that's different from what I do. Like I've never worked with someone who stepped on stage.  

I work with executives and get them lean. And I know you worked with executives too, but it's always fascinating, um, to, to talk to someone who's like, yeah, it's just, it's great to talk to you is where, what I'm getting at because the same parallel I see with the, all the narrative about, so I tend to deal with, let's say more unhealthy people from, at least from what I've seen on your Instagram. 

And the narrative is like, well, there's obesity is highly heritable. And it can just create that wall, it's, you know, it's my genes, my FTO, and I got whatever, Leo or whatever, you know, and it's just like, so, so there's not much I can do when in reality, obesity has been increasing since the eighties. And it's really the, the environment that has changed and the serving sizes that have changed and like our lack of awareness about, you know, how many steps we take and how active we are versus, you know, anything physiological. So, yeah, I, I, I hear you on that and, um, you, you got something to follow up on. 

Cliff Wilson: Well, yeah, I mean, what you nailed it is that I think when you're talking about bodybuilding or people trying to not be obese anymore, it's a lot of the same stuff that you do, you know, it's just the degree to which you do it, the degree to which you micromanage it, it's the same things just to different degrees.  

And I think that's one thing that people always misunderstand is like, bodybuilders aren't working some voodoo magic to create the look. And especially natural bodybuilders, there's no drugs involved. It's just, it's the same thing that you're doing with your executive just to a different degree and maybe micromanaging some more aspects and doing it for a longer period of time. So I think that's one thing that's, it is interesting because I think that's lost on so many people, you know? 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I would love to hear like how you view it differently. One thing that I feel like I have to do with clients is that when, if they're, if they're, let's say if I'm working with a client and they're an executive or they're an entrepreneur, and let's say that they've lost 20 pounds, but they want to get to that next level, they're still in the overweight or potentially obese depending on their starting point and they get comfortable. 

And then we have to dig deep on the psychological side. Why? And also, I use data. It's like, well, look at your, let's look at your blood work. It's better, but it's not ideal. Um, you know, let's look at your body fat percentage. It's not where, like, if you want to be playing with your grandkids, this is something that we should, we should do. Do you ever deal with that with your clientele? And if so, how? 

Cliff Wilson: So, I have like an interesting setup with things. So I've been coaching bodybuilders for about 15 years now. And I did something a little different. I actually started with bodybuilders first. I didn't even like personal train at first. I started to realize that I was much more adept at coaching people who wanted to go to extreme levels. 

So, I work with mostly bodybuilders. I work with a handful, as we discussed before we started the interview. I work with just a handful of non -bodybuilders a year, some executives and stuff like that. But usually, it's the type of executives that are looking to also still grow to the extreme level with their physique. But what I actually have is I also have a couple of assistant coaches, and they specialize in sometimes helping people with the other skills if they just want to get healthy. 

And so, what will usually happen is sometimes my coaches, one of my coaches is actually my ex -wife. We're still friends after our divorce and she's a skilled coach, especially at helping people develop the skills to go from an unhealthy lifestyle to a healthy lifestyle.  

And then what will usually happen is, you know, they'll either stick with her and do that. And then if they decide they want to take it to a more extreme level, then she'll actually pass them off to me because our skill sets are a little different in those arenas. But you are absolutely right about the psychological tactics. 

Because there are so many skills that are involved in achieving the physique that you want, whether it is just a healthy physique or an extreme physique, there are skills that come along with that. If you're looking for a healthy physique, a healthy body, and it's not so simple as handing over a nutrition program or a training program and saying, hey, have fun, see you later. 

Because if that were, then everybody would be in great shape, right? Because if it's that simple, it's just the plan. Coaching is actual coaching. Teaching them how to balance their life. For the average person, how do I enjoy my social life while still making progress towards my goals? How do I manage the logistics of my meals? How do I deal with being hungry? Things like that. That's the coaching part of it, in my opinion. 

And then, you know, by the time they get to me, when it comes to the more extreme end of things, how do I get an extreme physique, but how do I balance that with some sort of life?  

Like, how do I not drive my family crazy when I maybe am not eating the meals that they're eating? You know, regardless of what people may think of bodybuilders, the most successful bodybuilders are not the people that are shutting themselves in for 10 years. You have to get out there and live a life at some point.  

You have to have people in your life. And honestly, that's a big part that I do with my clients too is because they come to me with this idea that I don't need family, I don't need friends, I'm just hardcore, I'm a bodybuilding machine. I'm like, yeah, that may work for honestly even a year or two, but then you're going to decide that the sport's not worth it.  

So, I need to show them ways to be extreme in their training and their diet, but be moderated in how they interact with the world. And so, like you said, it's the skill development that I think coaches have all demographics. We spent so much time. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, it's funny because I do the same thing. I'll, I'll be a, you know, with a, uh, let's say a less extreme goal in mind, but that's what it really is. Right. 

It's like, so, uh, and I would love to hear from your side, you know, a quick story from one of my clients. I, I'm thinking about him right now. He's lost 20 pounds with me. And I remember when he first started in it, this is kind of fascinating. He was like, I don't know if I should start right now. I'm going on vacation. I'm going on this cruise. I've never even been on a cruise. And, um, you know, he's a successful executive and he went on this cruise. 

And he came back, he was, although we had him lose weight initially before we, uh, before he went on vacation, he ended up gaining some weight on the cruise. He didn't have the skills yet, but one thing we worked with him on is like, he came back. He's like, well, I feel like I just ruined my start.  

I'm like, no. That is exactly what we want you to do because we want to see where does your skill set because picking the right foods on vacation is a skill set. And if you can't apply skills, and I would even argue this is the main issue with people, it doesn't matter what the fuck you do at home on a great week. It's like when the pressure is on, are you able to apply those skills?  

And if you can't, then you don't maybe even have the skills in the first place. So anyway, he would say, I would usually quit after that. And then we just stopped him from quitting. So, I would love to hear, you know, if you have any insight, feel free to follow it up. But I would also love to hear like, what's the story of someone who came to you with an extreme approach and then how you help them to integrate that into a normal life. 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, you know, it's a well and you nailed it. I think sometimes people see people with great physiques and they think, well, you know, I don't have that circumstance. And I always tell them, you know, people with great physiques are not the ones with the perfect circumstances. They're the ones that can best manage their imperfect circumstances. And that's a skill set managing those imperfect circumstances.  

And so like you said, now he didn't quit. Now it's like now he actually has data to take into his next cruise, right? Like, okay, what did I do wrong this time? What can I improve upon? He won't be perfect next time probably, but he'll be better. That's the important thing is like he improves each time he gets on the situations.You know, one thing that I can think of is that I had one client some years ago and once again, I deal with this with a lot of bodybuilders. They just believe that the way is to shut themselves off from the entire world and become bodybuilding machines.  

And I had this client and I don't, he had in his mind that that was the way to go. He had an engineering degree that he was not using. He was working at a supplement company or a supplement store so he could get cheap and free supplements and he had no friends, he talked to his family, you know, minimally, and he could not stop cheating on his diet.  

Just could not stop it. And he's just like, I don't know. And so I'm going to try not to tie it and go too long, but the thing that I was telling him is that the problem is all of his weight as a person is now on bodybuilding. His entire identity is bodybuilding. 

There's nothing else to him. So now the thing is that when your entire identity is bodybuilding or your physique, when you cheat on your diet, it's hard to get back on plan because, okay, if somebody has a well-rounded identity, if you cheat on your diet, which everyone does, even high -level bodybuilders, they cheat on their diet.  

Ted Ryce: Thanks for saying that. 

Cliff Wilson: You cheat on your diet? Do you know what happens when you have a well -rounded identity? You say, oh messed up, let's get right back on plan. No big deal, right? We move forward. When you cheat on your diet and your entire identity is bodybuilding, you know what happens now? You're having an existential crisis. Now you haven't just failed, you are a failure. Because, okay yeah, if your goal is to be a bodybuilder and you cheat on your diet, you've failed to some degree, but it's a small degree, right? It's one meal, whatever.  

But when you are only about it really you are now a failure because everything that you are you just feel that now that requires an awful lot of resilience to pull yourself up on that whole it's not a will to move on there's a lot of guilt shame that comes with that i just don't like the first off I've heard him talk about work you don't like working at the supplement store I was like you have an engineering what are some jobs you want to be if you want to work for like it and airline 

company and I was like I was like I kind of think a more extreme approach I've been working with him two years he couldn't stick with I said I'm only going to keep coaching if you put out some applications to some and he's like I just don't know if they'll take me and he actually got a great job right out of the gate and then I was like hey have you gone on any dates I mean he's a young man he was 25 years old I was like have you gone on any dates lately like you know asking girls  out and then he actually did go on a couple of dates and then he got a couple of friends and what do you know he just the cheating on his diet just became a thing of the past.  

It just, we didn't even have any discussions about it. It just went away, right? He was getting promotion after promotion. He was, you know, had a friend's circle and he was, you know, new, new things arose of how do we balance all this, right? And then within a year and a half, he became, he turned pro. He won his next show. He became a pro in bodybuilding and it was just, um, rounding out his life and his identity.  

He was, he could be more than just a bodybuilder. And, um, you know, I think that, sometimes it's like people have these gaps in their mindset, in their life. Sometimes it's not a matter of... I think people view us coaches as like taking away, I'm going to take away this food, I'm going to take away your freedoms. But actually, if you're doing it right, we should be adding.  

Maybe we take away from this area, but maybe we need to add more over here to your life to help you feel a little more complete and balanced. Because I don't think all of your life can hinge on food. So, find that balance. So that would be the best example I could think of off the top of my head. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, that's a great one. And I think it's relevant. You know, it reminds me of a conversation. So, when asked me like, or my clients always want to know, like, how do I lose weight and keep it off? And it's like, well, why are we, why are most of us eating in the first place? And to the example that you gave with that young guy, it's like, he's working a job he doesn't like. 

He's not going out on dates. So, he's not having a social life. He's not having a relationship life. It's like food is probably the only thing that's bringing him some pleasure. You know, you got to get the brownies in. So, you can't, it's such a great lesson. You can't, if your life sucks and food is the only thing that's kind of bring some happiness. And then you take that away. Your life just sucks even more. 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, yeah. And you know, sometimes I even get, and you're right, people don't have other sources of joy in their life. It just becomes food and food. And it's like, that is a part of the joy of life, right? We all enjoy food, but it should be parts, not all. And even one thing I use as an example to a lot of my younger bodybuilders is, I've been fortunate enough, I've coached several world champions in the natural bodybuilding realm. 

And one example that I can think of from when I was, I was still a younger coach at this point. And I was at the world championships with a couple of clients who had qualified for the world championships. And I also had competitors competing in a different part of the world.  

So, I was up all night doing work in time zones, right? And I'm up in the morning in the hotel lobby, you know, messaging some clients that were competing in different parts of the world. 

And I look and I see one of my competitors who's competing that day at 3 a .m. walking around the parking lot with his two -year -old son. And I'm like, this guy's got the world championships tomorrow. What is he doing up right now? And I just said, man, what are you doing? His name is Valentine, Valentine Azuga. And I said, what are you doing? And he said, oh, he goes, you know, a little man couldn't sleep here.  

And I told my wife, there's no, you she doesn't need to wake up. She could keep sleeping and I'll walk around the parking lot with him. And I say, you know what? This guy had every excuse to tell his wife, I need you to take him, right? But his family was such a point of calm for him, you know, walking around with his son and I was watching him for a minute. He didn't even know I was watching him in the parking lot, but he looked happy, you know? 

I'm competing in the world championships today. I'm spending time with my two year old son who can't sleep. And, you know, I, by talking to him, he didn't say this, but I could tell, I think a competitor that feels like he doesn't have anything to lose is dangerous, you know? And the thing was, there's a lot of pressure on somebody that's entering that day thinking, I'm going to be devastated if I lose. Do you know what I mean? 

Whereas Valentine, he wanted to win, don't get me wrong, he's a competitor, he wants to win. But he has a calm to him that says, you know what, if I win, I'm still going to be okay. So, he's totally free out there, you know what I mean? And so I always use that example to some of my clients. And he won the world championships the very next day.  

And I tell people, if you want to be really good at something, it can't be your only thing. You've got to be rounded in some degrees. You can choose your times to be extreme. You can choose your areas to be more extreme. But you also have to learn where you need to pull back and moderate. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, that's a great lesson and great story to illustrate that point. Cliff, what are some other, you know, you've worked with world champions in bodybuilding. What are some of the lessons, maybe mindset wise, that someone who is listening right now and perhaps that's not their goal to become a world champion in bodybuilding.  

But what are some mindset lessons that someone listening right now could take away from what it takes to be the best in a sport? 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, you know, I think that what so actually I just finished writing my second book and I'm going to have probably have it out in a couple months here once I finish getting it out. But so I just wrote a book that actually I kind of I wrote it selfishly because I wanted something to hand off to my clients because I think sometimes as a coach, you know, regardless of what you're coaching... 

Ted Ryce: We repeat ourselves. 

Cliff Wilson: Yes. And I think also as a coach, sometimes people put a lot of pressure on us to help their psychological aspects. And it can be very difficult to identify and dig in on too many areas all at once.  

So, I wrote a book. I intended it to be small, but it turned out to be a whopper. So it's like 200 pages. And I wanted to make sure I didn't have any gaps in my psychological knowledge. So, I had it reviewed by two PhD psychologists to make sure my information is on point. 

But I think, one thing I've identified over the years is that there are certain commonalities between people that get the most out of themselves, regardless of the arena. And what I view is they're motivated, they are confident, they are resilient, they are disciplined, and they're titrating. Those are, in my opinion, the key characteristics of people. And I say this because I think a lot of times people think motivated and confident, right? 

What most people believe as motivated and confident usually degrades into nothing more than a locker room pep talk of you can do it. And I don't think that there's a time and a place for that, right? I think there's a time and a place for a you can do it speech. But I think if we want self motivated individuals and confident individuals, I think I encourage people to take a more analytical approach to themselves.  

Okay, before we ask if you can do it, maybe we can ask, do you want to do it? You know, like there's a cost for everything that you want to achieve. The cost for achieving a certain physique, you're going to be hungry sometimes. That's a cost. Do you want to do that? There are going to be times where you're going to have to be out with people and you know, depending on the degree to which you want to go, you're going to go out with people or you're going to be mindful of what you're putting in your body.  

You can't just turn your brain off and eat mindlessly. Maybe you have to really moderate your caloric intake. It's a cost, right? And I ask a lot of my clients, like, are you willing to pay this cost? Like, you have to accept this cost. It's like buying anything at the store.  

The physique you want comes with a price. This is the price. And then when we get into confidence and discipline, I just see issues of people try to delude themselves into, you know, interesting research I would say on confidence. A lot of the research shows that some of the most confident people out there are not the ones that believe they can do anything or, you know, the whole shoot for the stars and if you miss you'll land on a cloud type of attitude. A lot of the research shows that's not particularly helpful because if you shoot for the stars and you miss, even if you land on a cloud, you're going to be disappointed that you landed on a cloud and then you got to pick yourself back up.  

A lot of people that are the most confident, the research actually shows, they engage in something called defensive pessimism, meaning that they work out all of the ways in which they might fail so they can safeguard against that.  

And then usually when they have come to the conclusion they think they can succeed, they expect maybe only modest returns and then they are very encouraged and happy when it surpasses their expectations.  

It keeps them going, right? Because if you expect these magnificent returns and then you fall short of that goal, it gets coded in your brain as a failure, which anything coded in your brain as a failure is usually not a good thing for you. So, I think that getting into these aspects, with each individual, I try to make sure that I'm picking up on these characteristics that they may be lacking.  

Some people are maybe very confident, but they're not very, sometimes I'll say, I use the phrase titrating to describe personality. Titration's usually used in medicine or chemistry, meaning to continually measure and adjust the balance of. And this is what I, I'm sure you deal with this a ton with your clientele and the executives, and I deal with this quite a bit with athletes, but tight training, meaning you continually measure and adjust the balance of yourself and the path you are taking. I'm sure you, how many of you heard of this?  

I'm a type A personality, it's just the way I am. And I tell them, well, maybe you shouldn't be that way unless it calls for it. Like, adjust yourself. I don't want you to always be the hardest work in the room, I want you to be the person that's going to do what it takes to get the job done and sometimes the job calls for more, sometimes the job calls for less. Can you adjust yourself? Can you be titrating in your approach?  

I want someone that can eventually be a chameleon and take on whatever they need to do to get the job done. That's a truly gifted individual right there that can develop themselves in that way.  

And so, you know, just trying to make sure I pinpoint these characteristics that I can sort of educate them a little bit to get them to be the perfect tool to get the job done. That makes sense. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I like that a lot. I've never heard of the term defensive pessimism, but, uh, but I liked that a lot. And certainly, one of the things that I have to work with my clients is when they do have those high expectations and fall short, their stress levels go up that internal dialogue like, Hey, I can't do this.  

They start losing confidence, even if they're very confident outside of this realm, they start losing confidence in themselves.  

And it's like my, I feel my job to help reframe how they're looking at things and setting expectations differently. So, they don't feel such guilt or shame or whatever that, you know, whatever negative emotion, because I think you would agree people quit because it becomes too stressful, right? People quit whatever it is. It's like, no, I just can't do this. I don't have time. It's too hard.  

And so, you know, to use your word, titration, I feel like it's my job to keep someone in the zone with if they get too bored, they're going to lose interest. If they're too stressed, they're going to feel overwhelmed and like they can't do it.  

So, it's like adjusting them, adjusting their expectations and adjusting what I asked them to do based on how they're feeling in that moment. And that moment can change, right? You get clients with people where we're like, Oh, my dad got sick. I had a client where that happened or I've had a client whose dad died. 

And although the guy that the father was, you know, advanced age and it was his time, it was still a stressful thing. Even if you're okay psychologically with his passing, you still got to deal with all the logistical stuff, what you do with, with his stuff. And, you know, I went through that. Um, so, so yeah, it's a great point. Uh, really great point.  

One thing, um, I wanted to ask you about too, in what you're saying is I think there's a narrative, especially with what you said about the type A people. Like, wow, I'm super tough. I can do anything. But you made a great point in saying, well, it's not about working so hard. It's about, are you getting the result? And sometimes the result means that you don't work so hard. Like, maybe you need to take a day off and go to bed early or get a massage or whatever it is. 

And, you know, I think about like, I want to give this example, then I'd love to hear, you your thoughts. I had a guy who came in, came into my program, he had done the 75 hard, I'm sure you're familiar with that, right? Right. 75 hard, right? And, and so he's done that before. And when he came into my program, and he didn't do well at all. And he didn't follow through on the things. 

And I'm like, dude, you did this thing for 75 days. You worked out twice a day. You, you followed the strict diet, no cheating. You took, you know, drank a gallon of water, by the way, if you're listening, this is what, you know, the things in this 75 hard, but then number one, you're still chubby, right?  

It didn't, you went back, you gained the weight back and I'm asking you to do things more, more, let's say more longer term, I'm asking you to do the really mentally tough thing, instead of you getting really excited about a short term, you know, 75-day thing that it's questionable, some people do keep it up and that's fine. 

But if you've done something like that, and then you fell off, it's like, you're not really doing the mentally tough thing at all. It's a mental toughness challenge. It's no, you're doing the easy thing because you're excited to do it because you like Andy Frisella. If you're listening, that's it. It's like, I'm asking you to do the mentally tough thing and you're not stepping up and doing it. So I don't think you're mentally tough at all. And I don't care about your 75 hard achievement. I want to see you lock it in for a year. 

And just let me say one thing, just in case anybody gets real sensitive about that, is they really love Andy, you know? I don't have anything against Andy, although I don't think it's, I think your results, Cliff, are quite impressive.  

And I don't think, you know, versus like Andy and Andy says it's not a, it's not a body transformation, but most people who do it, that's like a big part of the goal. Hence the two workouts, the selfies that you got to put up and it's like, why are you doing this thing?  

That's really hard. That's that gives you this validation, but you're not really willing to do the thing that works. You know, I would love to hear your, your thoughts on that. 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. And I actually, I used to be sponsored by First Form, so I know Andy, I know Andy a bit. I've been on some podcasts with him and stuff. So yeah, but I do, I do agree with you. I don't think that the 75 hard is like the right way for people to go about it. And, you know, I think that there's a couple of things that get tied in here.  

So first off, I think people often miss that self discipline and self control. Um, research proven again to be like a muscle. It can be trained and overtrained. And so I see people go through something like a 75 hard. I think a lot of CrossFit is like this too. I've seen people have balance in their CrossFit, but the majority of CrossFit is an imbalanced approach. It is a grind yourself into dust type of thing. And so something occurs when you stretch yourself beyond your current self -discipline limits.  

Just like, okay, if you train and you train and you train, you're going to get injured or get sick, right? You've overtrained yourself. If you do that mentally, you control yourself and discipline and discipline and discipline and force yourself to do everything. Something that occurs called ego depletion, where you're going to have nothing left to give. And that's where the weight gain return comes, right?  

The best results are going to be when you're pushing minimally. And so, where I think that this comes together where the way I see it, I don't really have research to back this up, this is my own opinion, but in my opinion, I think the problem comes into, okay, we look at what is effort. In my opinion, there are two judgments of what effort is. And you can't let one outweigh the other too much. 

So, effort is a degree of force applied to a situation, right? What force am I going to leverage against this situation I am in, right? But it's also tied up into a display of character. If you're lazy, that's, you know, you apply no force to your situations, people will judge you negatively on your character. 

But if you work hard, that's a high value characteristic. Nobody would argue that, right? You know, if you're a high effort person. But the problem is, it gets warped with these things. So, you have these two things with effort, a display of force and your character. The problem is, if you take so highly the character portion, I am a high character person, I'm a high effort person, I'm the hardest worker in the room. 

You're going to be constantly applying more force than what is required and then you will create ego depletion. You'll have nothing left to give when you actually need to apply some force to a situation. Save your battery, save your gas tank. If your situation does not call for a great degree of force, don't apply it. Apply the appropriate level of force and then you have something.  

When you need to dig deep, you have something in your tank to dig deep. And so I think that, and I apply this to my bodybuilders all the time, and I know this probably doesn't apply to your group, but I, sometimes I tell my competitors, they become so obsessed with bodybuilding, and don't get me wrong, I'm obsessed with bodybuilding, right? I'm like, I like lifting weights, let me build my entire life around lifting weights. And so, but I'm like, okay, what do you need to do to be a successful bodybuilder? Eat your meals. 

Train really hard, get sleep. I mean honestly, those are like the big three things. I don't need you to be thinking about bodybuilding in between all of these things. I don't need you to be like, bodybuilding, bodybuilding, bodybuilding, bodybuilding, bodybuilding, bodybuilding, bodybuilding, you're watching TV, bodybuilding, bodybuilding. I'm like, eat your meals and train your ass off, but also you don't need to be thinking about it 24 -7 because you're applying too much force to your day. You know what I mean? 

And by the time your workout comes around, you're probably going to be exhausted from all the bodybuilding swimming around in your head. And so, you know, I want you to have something in the tank. So yeah, I agree with you. I want people to learn to be able to relax because then when you have, relax, shut it off, know when you need to have rest because I want to see you have something in the tank when you need to dig deep and you haven't depleted yourself. I mean, even if we're going to just use an analogy of, race car, you know, some sort of, any sort of car racing.  

The guy that wins is not the one that puts his foot on the gas and doesn't pull it off the entire race. He knows when to give ... 

Ted Ryce: That's a great analogy. 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, he's the one that he'll give it gas when it's time to give it gas. He will break when it's time to break. And you got to know when that is. And that's skill development, right back to skill development we were talking about, you know, and whether you want to have a health, just a healthy body and not be obese anymore, or you want to be an elite athlete.  

Skill development of knowing when to gas and when to break and don't tie your entire character to be like, I'm such a badass, I push all the time every day, you know? 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. Those, those people can be, uh, you know, it's, it, it's like almost the mentally tough thing to do is to skip the gym, go get a massage. Right. Or, or go meditate. That's another, it's like, cool. You're so tough. Try meditation. Just five minutes. 

It's the hardest thing to ask a type A high performer, you know, it's the hardest thing to ask them to do. You ask them to work, you know, all night long or to, you know, crush deals or whatever. Um, you know, it's not a problem, but sitting alone with your thoughts and not checking your phone or your email or your, your Slack notifications like just sitting there and breathing is one of the hardest things that that you know, if you're high performing it can be 

Cliff Wilson: I'm going to give you a funny example.  

Ted Ryce: Sure  

Cliff Wilson: I've had this slogan for years and sometimes my clients joke with me that I pull the old switcheroo with them. Because I want those people that want to be a badass, right? If you send them to me, you send them to me, if I get my hands on them, I know I can turn them into a real badass, not this version they have built up in their head. 

One slogan that I often use for my business and a lot of my business endeavors is, intensity is everything. So, I bring in these bad houses and then I would say, well, you know, there's a word I said, managing your intensity is everything.  

And they're like, oh, you pulled the old switch over. I tell them like, you have to be able to learn how to manage your intensity. And I didn't say it should be all intense all the time. Like you need to know how to manage that intensity. 

And what are you bringing day in and day out? And you're right on the meditation point. I'm a big, and it's funny because I think that, I think sometimes meditation, and I'll even use the word holistic sometimes with my clients, like I want to have a holistic approach.  

And sometimes I think that meditation and the word holistic have been really like co -opted by some, like, pseudo spiritual type stuff. I'm like, I'm not going to have you like, you know, doing healing crystals and stuff like that. But like, I think there's such a great advantage to being able to like, can you lower your heart rate?  

Can you sit there and lower your heart rate? Can you calm yourself? You know, I want someone who can amp themselves up when you have a big deadlift set. Oh, we got a thumbs up going. I want someone who can amp themselves up for a big set, but then calm themselves and pull their heart rate back down. And, you know, it's like, sometimes I'll tell people like, they're getting every indication that their body is beat up.  

And I'm like, you need, you need to take a few days off from the gym. And they're like, I can push myself through this. I'm like, you told me when we first started, you would do anything it takes to win. Right? And they're like, they're like, they're like, yeah. And I'm like, you know, champions do what it takes, even if they don't want to do it. 

And that means days off. And then they back themselves into a corner there and they know it. So, yeah. 

Ted Ryce: I'm going to steal that from you, Cliff. I'm going to steal that from you with the guys who are, and sometimes women, who are like that, yeah. Because it's such a mindset shift, but that's what it takes to be a champion, right? 

Even if you're not looking to step on stage, if you want to be a champion with your health in the context of your running a business and in your family, it's like it's got to you've got to actually do what it takes. And sometimes that is yeah, listening.  

It's not about pushing hard. You know, what's interesting about this too, is that for sure, you need to be able to push and you need to be able to ignore signals sometimes.  

For example, if you have a deadline at work, maybe bodybuilding is different, but let's say you have a deadline at work and a deal is going to go down and let's say you need you're exhausted, but you need to pop some caffeine pills or drink some coffee and push through. There's certain times in building a business you have to do that. 

But if you do it too often, it becomes a habit and it becomes the default. And as you get older, inflammation levels go up. Your sleep isn't as good. Your stress levels are higher because you got kids and they're waking you up and getting them to school with all the things that happen. 

It's like, you got to, you got to, you got to start to retrain that habit to not put you in a catabolic state all the time. Right. And, um, yeah, it's really tricky, but I love what you said there on how you get people saying, I thought you said you do whatever it takes. 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, and you are right, like, you know, and I think that that's where the misconception comes in. So, we've been talking about finding that balance, but it doesn't mean you don't push. And even as a perfect example, when I first started my coaching business. 

Once I started to realize I could do something with this, I went all in on it and I was, I was working, you know, 80, 90 hour weeks. And I was 25, 26 and pushing and I knew I couldn't keep that pace forever, but I knew that I could slow it down. And then I had my daughter, I had my daughter and I was able to slow things down a little bit for some years. But now I've started some, I still have my full coaching load, but I've started a few new aspects to my business recently. So I'm kind of like back to 80 hour weeks here. 

By the way, I'm about 40 now and it definitely, those 80 hour weeks hit a little differently at 40 than they do at 25, I'll say that. And so, but, you know, I know and my family knows this is, these are not forever hours. You know what I mean? 

Like these are, I will pull it down and there is an end point and there's, you know, there's recouped time. And so, I think it's just like finding what your range is and how long, what is sustainable, what is not sustainable, what is sustainable for what time period? 

I mean, if you even just look at it in terms of any sort of race running, right? You can sprint for a period of time, you can run at a moderate pace for a period of time, and then you can do a marathon, for example, or like an ultra-marathon. It's like, what pace can you keep for how long?  

And then also understanding that everybody has different capabilities in that degree, in that regard also. I can sometimes work longer periods of time than some other people, then there are other people that can work longer than myself before they burn out. And I think just knowing where your capabilities lie so you can best tailor yourself, your own schedule.  

Like as you said, being able to put things at a higher priority at one point and then back them off and put something else at a higher priority. And we get right back to the nuance of the situation rather than just having this one-track mindset of I'm a badass, I'll do it all. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, you got to have some flexibility, right? You know, it's a cool concept that I think is over that that can be applied in life is from training is the idea of like your training, your normal training and then overreaching where you're doing more, you know, it's not sustainable. 

But like in, you know, it sounds like with what you're doing right now, you're kind of overreaching with your business versus over training. When you're just, you're like, I don't even know. Like just, I can't do anything anymore. Right? Where you're just shut down and, um, you know, it's okay to overreach, but just be intentional about it. Understand what it is. It's okay to overreach in any, any area of your life, you know, um, where you're looking to go. 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, well, and you nailed it too. I think that like learning, knowing that that overreaching will bring a period of fatigue afterwards. So, I think then people, so for example, I'm overreaching right now and I know when I'm done with this work overreaching phase, I'm going to be tired. I'm going to need to back off a little bit, but I'm not going to consider myself a failure because this is expected. This is an expected part of the process. I'm sure you've seen it. 

I'm sure you see this like crazy with your executives too, where it's like, they probably try to do everything all the time, all at once. And then when they have this, you know, as you and I see it, expected downturn in production for a period of time, they probably think they've failed because they can't keep up that pace. And you're like, this is to be expected with how hard you've been pushing yourself. You need a period of recovery. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, and also, I think it's really hard to do that yourself too. You know, I just want to throw this out there, Cliff. I'm kind of like in a phase where I'm doing, my goal is to get my Brazilian Jiu -Jitsu black belt like almost there.  

Cliff Wilson: Oh, that's awesome.  

Ted Ryce:  Yeah, I've got, although I just had stem cell injections and joints, so I've had to like take three months off of training. And so it's like, oh, maybe I'm. 

 Maybe it's going to be next year. We'll see. But you're someone who I would, especially based on what Borgie said, someone who I would work with if I was looking for that next level in my physique. And it's just, it's really hard to do it on your own. 

Even though if you ask me, like I know about progressive overload, I know how to, you know, create a calorie deficit, but I think it's just the same way a top doctor, would not try to self -diagnose and come up with a treatment plan for themselves, they would, they go to other doctors and it would be the same sort of thing. While it's not, you're, you're not diagnosing a health issue.  

It's just still hard to diagnose your own training plan. Is it appropriate? Because we just, we all have blind spots and it gets really tough to be objective about it, especially, you know, I'm like you, man, I'm, I'm busy building my business, but I have other goals at the same time. So, any thoughts on that? 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, it's hard to remove emotions from your own body, right? Because you feel everything. It is so hard. And even like, so I do prep myself, but I get feedback from people, even like when I'm in the process. Well, I do two things. You're going to think I'm crazy for this. So, I do two things actually. I take photos of myself, and then I email myself the photos with an update of my week. 

And then I step away from my update that I sent myself. I think my body weight, my photos, and the quick like, what happened in this week? And then I step away from it for like eight hours to like remove myself from what I just wrote.  

And then I go into my email and pretend like I'm like a client. Then I actually, I'll also discuss my plan of action for the week with my wife and my ex –wife, because they also know my tendencies, you know, they know my tendency to overwork myself because I mean, it sounds like we're of that same type, like, you know, we're going to probably err on the side of doing too much rather than too little and they tend to kind of... 

Ted Ryce: My back hurts But I think I can still train a couple.... 

Cliff Wilson: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, we've been talking about this about people that are like, yeah, I want to push through and no off days 

We laugh about it but we're not making fun of that because we're probably those same type. They're like, hey, I thought you'd do I sometimes need to have that talk with myself. I thought you'd do whatever it takes to win, you know?  

And so, but I think it is so good to have someone and you know, like you said, I actually I have a handful of clients that are PhDs in exercise science or human metabolism and these are different areas. It's like they know, you know, they know the research. 

They know this, but hard to apply it to yourself. Oh boy, it is difficult. And I think nothing can be summed up. I I know for myself when I'm dieting, also how much food you have in your system can really skew how you look and think about yourself.  

I always think when I'm in prep and I'm depleted and I haven't had a refeed day in a while, I can, I feel bad, so I look in the mirror and I think to myself, you know, always, I think to myself, I look terrible. And you also think, I feel like I could die any minute, you know, I'm just going to feel so bad. And then you have like a refeed day, so the next day you look at me and you're like, I look amazing and I'm going to live forever, right? It changes so fast. So you're like, okay, I need to avoid making decisions in either of these states. 

Ted Ryce: Absolutely. And just to comment on what you said, like, you're going to think this sounds crazy. I think if I would coach myself, which I'm not disciplined enough to do what you're saying, or really, I don't have the motivation to do it, I'm lazy. It's like, here's money, just tell me what to do. 

I think enough is not even laziness really. It's just, I like to, you know, it's part of how I balance the stress and I don't want the stress. But if I was going to do it, it would be, I couldn't think of any better way to do coach myself than what you said. Basically, you're treating yourself like a client. You're not like just, you know, you're not just like, yeah, okay. 

Here's my photos and everything. How do I feel about is move on? No, you're treating it like you're treating it like a client, treating yourself like a client and you're doing your best to remove the feelings of the moment when you, when you take all the data to try to give yourself even more perspective. I think that's genius actually, Cliff. Yeah. And then getting outside.  

Cliff Wilson:  Yeah, yeah, well, you know, and one thing that I see that is problematic for highly motivated and highly educated individuals, because I coach a lot of, I coach a lot of those people. That's like a good niche that I work with. Borge being one of them, right? He's highly motivated, highly educated. And I have a lot of these people where I actually give them more control over what path we're taking than I would with obviously like a beginner bodybuilder, right?  

Because their input is important because they have valuable input into their own self and their own process. But one thing that I always keep careful to draw this line is like sometimes I'll get mid week check -ins from them telling me all this stuff. And I say, listen, let's confine this to a check -in day because you're going to wear yourself out. I mean, the reason they're hiring me is because like you said, analyzing and coaching yourself, you can wear yourself out.  

And I said, I tell them, we can't give so much weight to every thought and feeling you have throughout the week. It's too heavy, right? Let's confine a time and a place to analyze our data points. A weekly check -in, right? And then we make our decisions here, and then let's not do that for another week.  

Give that adjustment we made time to take effect, and then we analyze once again because if you're analyzing every single day, I feel good today, I feel bad today, I feel like I look better, I feel like I look worse, it's just going to weigh on you and let's confine our decision making to a specific data point in time and then assess and go forward from there. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I love that. That's so important. And we just, you know, as human beings, as much as we'd like to believe we're super logical, we just, we all fall into the traps, right? No matter our education or IQ or experience, it's like we all fall into the traps. Cliff, man, you know, I've got a call coming up soon, but I've really enjoyed, I didn't know how this conversation was going to go.  

I really enjoyed this. And I didn't get, cause we, I think the conversation we had today was really important, but I'd love to do a part two where we talk about like, well, you know, I'm looking, I have your Instagram up and I'm looking at you and I think I get the graininess, but I'm like, that's super impressive who you're working with is super impressive. You already mentioned genetically you don't at least with the, I forget what you called it, but with the risk measurement as being the determinant of how much muscle mass you can put on. It's like you've created a fantastic physique. I would love to get into like what. 

How do you get from fit to that? It's specifically with the muscle growth side, right? We all know that the fat loss, it's, you know, I mean, we could talk about the fat loss and maintaining muscle, but like, how do you get to that level of muscle growth besides, you know, just saying, well, it's consistency and then it's a progressive overload. I know you've, you've, there's some nuance there. So, I'd love to have you back on for a part two for that, if you're up for it. 

Cliff Wilson: I would love that. This has been a great conversation. I also like, given that like we do a lot of the same things, but slightly different like arenas, I think it makes for a good back and forth. So, I'd be totally on board with that whenever you want to have me back. 

Ted Ryce: Cool. Yeah, I would really, really appreciate that conversation because I want to learn too from you. I've, you know, I love learning from other experts. Yeah. So, so Cliff, if someone wants to go to, if they're interested in learning more about you, is it teamwilsonbb.com the best place to go? 

Cliff Wilson: Yes, yeah, that's my personal site for all my clients. And I always tell people, you know, when you fill out the application, I find out what you're looking for. And then I can either work with you or if I feel like, you know, if you're not a competitor or you don't want to be a competitor, then I can actually place you with one of my assistant coaches that is like ideal for your specific situation. So yeah, teamwilsonbb.com. 

Ted Ryce: Awesome. And is there anywhere else that also you could go to CW team Wilson, that CW team Wilson on Instagram. Definitely follow Cliff. If you're on Instagram, it's very inspiring. The photos and you share a lot of great information from, from what, when Borgi first told me about you and I started looking you up, what you talk about it's it's.  

I'll just say this last point. It's really important who you get your information from these days. And so one of the things I try to do here on this podcast is curate that who I believe like, Oh, you need to know about this person. You need to follow them. It's going to, you know, be part of, uh, you know, that information ecosystem that I want people to create for themselves.  

So they're getting better information instead of the 99 % of terrible information out there. So yeah, anywhere else you'd want someone to go? 

Cliff Wilson: No, I keep, those are my two main areas and I tend to keep my social media presence probably rather moderate. I'm not like in a ton of different places like a lot of people, but yeah, I really appreciate your time because you are right. I think that there's more information than ever out there. Not all of it good, most of it not good.  

And so, you know, I think that the more, you know, people like us can kind of just get our messages out there and show people like what you know, what this process actually looks like better. So, I really appreciate you having me on and I'm totally down for a part two whenever. 

Ted Ryce: Let's do it, Cliff. It's been a lot of fun. I love learning from you and I can't wait to dive into like, what are those, what are those nuances or air quotes secrets that you're doing that gets you to that level of, you know, muscle growth. Would love to learn that. So, let's make that happen for sure. 

Cliff Wilson: Awesome. Thank you again.