Podcast Transcription: Happy Money: The Japanese Art of Making Peace with Your Money with Ken Honda

Ted Ryce: So, Ken Honda, it’s such a pleasure to have you on the show today, and you’re coming from Japan. You’re tuning in from Japan, is that correct? What time is it there? 

Ken Honda: Yes. it’s 7:00, your future morning, tomorrow morning. 

Ted Ryce: Amazing. Yeah, and coincidentally, I’m coming to you from Sao Paulo, Brazil, which has the second-largest population of Japanese people outside of Japan. 

Ken Honda: Wow, wow, wow, it’s exciting. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. It’s kind of cool. Cool coincidence and Ken, you’re known as the Zen Millionaire. I’m new to your work, I just started your book, I’m loving the lessons in it. How did you earn the name, “The Zen Millionaire?” 

Ken Honda: So, I talk with the publisher and I don’t call myself that, but I guess a lot of people quote my teaching as more like a zen teaching with money, and people seem to love the idea. I don’t necessarily practice zen in a sense of Zen Buddhist, but I think my approach to money is more of zen.  

Western people tend to think like more is better, but zen philosophy finds neutral plays to be the most balanced one. So, that means yin yang, and also that means that you don’t have to have more, you don’t have to have less, you just have to have the right amount for you.  

And the right amount varies depending on the individual, your money container and the other. Your friend’s money container can be totally different, and can you satisfy? 

I mean, it’s like weight, you know? Are you comfortable with where you are or just do you think you have a little more or a little less? It’s up to you. You don’t compare with other people with weight, right? She’s like, say 95, I’m 80. 

Ted Ryce: Well, you shouldn’t, right? I think a lot of people do, but it is definitely the cause of a lot of anxiety, comparison. 

Ken Honda: Yeah, because it could be taller, it could be shorter at the different kind of build, so it doesn’t make sense to compare. And at least with weight, people don’t compare with: how much I weigh? Okay, I’m weighing this much, so I’m better, you know? But with money, we do that all the time. So, it’s just ridiculous to just think that more is better when it comes to money. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. And look, I was a personal trainer to the rich and famous in Miami Beach for 20 years, so I always thought that money meant better, but then I started seeing people who had Ferrari collections and $20 million mansions, or a $100 million compounds where they had three mansions or four mansions on the property.  

And some of the most unhappy people had the most amount of money that I ever saw. And then I saw people who had a lot of money too, but then they were happy, so it wasn’t the money that was the deciding factor.  

And Ken, before we get into this deeper, I’d love to hear like, “What got you into this?” Because I’ve heard your personal story, but the listeners of this podcast may not have. 

Ken Honda: Right. So, to make it short, I was born into a unique family. My father was a tax accountant in Japan, Kobe City, which is west of Tokyo. And my mother was a stay-at-home mom, so my father used to take me to the near shopping mall and started teaching me about money, which one is making most money.  

To look at fish market, there are so many people coming in and out, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they make the most money because the mattress store right next door, they sell one mattress and a futon once a week, but they can stay in business because the margin is bigger.  

So, I never thought of that as a five or six-year-old boy, I don’t know how I got it, or I don’t even if you got it. But he taught me something like that, so by the age of 12, I knew pretty much about money.  

So, I used to harass my father’s clients by asking them very technical questions like, “Sir, do you know what is your ROI with the company you own?” Like, oh my God. So, I know I could freak out all the adults by giving them technical terms, and I didn’t even know what that means. 

Ted Ryce: So, you just had this knack. And I understand, that’s such a beautiful example because it’s something I had to learn as I started moving from a personal trainer/coach into more of a running a company.  

There are people who say they have seven or eight-figure businesses that their margins are very low because they have a hundred employees, and they’re spending, hundreds of thousands of dollars on advertising or whatever it is to get the money, and so it’s really about that profit.  

And when it comes to money, what would you say? You grew up in Japan. I’ve lived in Southeast Asia and Thailand, and for two years, Bali, and the cultural differences were quite striking. And although I haven’t been to Japan yet, I’ve met a lot of Japanese tourists, had some conversations, and that whole experience and the people I met changed me.  

And I would love to hear from you, growing up in Japan and starting your career there, helping people there with their money beliefs, their money traumas, as you talk about, what do you see the key differences being when you started talking to people in the west, started coming to speak in the West? What do you see, like the key differences culturally speaking when it comes to money? 

Ken Honda: Ted, you asked me just great questions, I really enjoy that, so thank you. So, what is so different is about in the West, people believe the more is better as we discussed. It’s almost like a religion; they don’t have any doubts about that. More money equals better life.  

But in Japan, since we have this minimalist idea of less is better because of them. Like Steve Jobs– the founder of Apple and iPhones– he was a true believer of zen so he wanted to cut everything off of the product, so he wanted to have zero button on his iPhones.  

So, the idea is less is more beautiful. So, there’s this question that I often asked by Japanese people, “Ken, how can I make myself happier with the money I have?” I never got a question like that in the west, especially in the United States, because somehow more money, the bigger house or multiple houses are better.  

But I’ve never heard any American saying, “I want to weigh more, I want to be bigger.” People want to lose weight so it must be confusing for UFO aliens to come in, fly in and observe us. These guys want to increase their money more, but they want to decrease their weight. Why? And I think less could be happier when it comes to money, but people don’t know that. 

Ted Ryce: And why do you think that is? When you first talk about this, I mean, I grew up, I’ve talked about this on my podcast, my parents were attorneys, they did quite well in terms of their salaries. My dad had his own law practice, my stepmother worked for the government– she was a tax attorney.  

They had in the eighties and early nineties, they were making about maybe $500,000 a year, which is quite a lot of money for that time, and I saw them struggle financially, trying to make more, trying to spend on things that maybe didn’t give a boost in their happiness or a boost....  

They would keep spending money but it never led to that, “Oh, now I can relax. Now I have that sense of peace.” And if more money, or spending money and buying stuff doesn’t, what do you have to say about where we should we put our focus? How do we become happier with the money we have? 

Ken Honda: It’s about how you receive the money, to begin with, that’s how I got the concept of Happy Money. Even though we get the same amount of money in terms of numbers, the way how you got it determines your happiness level.  

For example, if you’re a personal trainer, Ted, just imagine like yourself many years ago when you receive a check, there are clients who didn’t want to give you the check but he or she wrote it anyway because that’s the rule.  

And also, there are those clients who are so super happy with you, they really enjoyed every second of your time together and then happily gave you the check. “Thank you, Ted. I had the most amazing time ever.” So, it’s the same number of money you receive, but the money you receive out of funny frustration, you feel a little awkward about that.  

But the same amount of money you receive with so much joy and gratitude, makes you feel warm and happy, and all the time, all the work you did with this person was suddenly very fun. So, you want to see that client again instead of the person who grudgingly gives you the check.  

So, how you receive money, how you make money is very important energy-wise. And when you spend the money, are you feeling so happy? Are you letting go of the money easily with gratitude or, “Oh, I don’t want to pay this, it’s so expensive, I don’t get it, oh,” and pay. You have to pay it anyway, like taxes.  

So, can you let go of your money with grace and a happy attitude? That determines your level of happiness. 

Ted Ryce: Interesting! And certainly, I can remember instances with clients who were very gracious and we had a good exchange energetically during our sessions, and certainly when it came to paying me, versus some where they would wait or be late and begrudgingly pay.  

And there was a certain energy where it kind of—I think what you’re alluding to is we catch emotions from each other. Even you and me right now on this podcast we’re trying to promote, we’re trying to have people catch some positivity from this.  

And so, what I hear you saying is the relationships with the people that we have where there’s an exchange of money, whether it’s with our parents teaching us, or whether it’s with our employees or our boss or our clients, those relationships are key to gaining happiness, and from those exchanges, do I understand you right? 

Ken Honda: I think so. And I think everything is actually an exchange of energy. Even though with business or without businesses, your friendship depends on what kind of energy is flowing in your life. It could be expectation, frustration, or is it like love and gratitude?  

Same goes with their partnership with their family members. Look at the energy inside your home, is it full of love and peace, or attention and frustration and expectation, betrayal, anger? What kind of energy is flowing in your house? It’s up to you. And you can create the energy from yourself with somebody you care about.  

But life is not always perfect, I know that. But still, do you have an intention to transform your energy right now with money, with work, with relationships, and with yourself? So, once you get it, you are like an antenna, the energy goes up and you receive certain energy. So, which dial– I’m an old man, so I’m saying dial, the radio used to, we adjusted with a dial, right? 

Ted Ryce: I’m with you, Ken. 

Ken Honda: Yeah, so how do you adjust it? Do you want to tune in to the happiness channel or frustration, depression, anger channel? And the funny thing is, if you get frustrated, somehow you tend to attract frustrated clients. And that’s a love of universe. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I love what we’re talking about right now, and I think it starts to... I mean, something you talk about, Ken, is “Money traumas and healing our relationship with money.”  

And as soon as I heard you say that, I knew exactly, I don’t know all your teachings, I’m just starting to get into them now. But the concept I got immediately and I started thinking of my parents and how they spent money on a lot of things that did never return the happiness for them.  

And even though we were living in this big house and we had a backyard where they had spent a $100,000 to redo and make beautiful, like it looked like these rock formations, it looked beautiful, but they were still struggling psychologically with stress, overwork.  

And as I’ve gotten older– I’m 46 now– and I’m so different from my parents, I’ve focused on my health, but I see some of the habits that they have– the financial habits– especially with my dad, and I’m repeating them, even though if you met me and my dad, you would see us as so similar but yet I have these habits.  

And that’s immediately what I thought of when you talked about it. For the people who it doesn’t hit right away, can you talk about how you came up with this idea of money traumas and how it’s intergenerational and how do you start to talk to people about this concept? 

Ken Honda: Right. So, when I was doing accounting business with my brother and my father, we were helping people with finding inheritance taxes. And I was at the conference table with three people, one is a suit and tie. The eldest son is a suit and tie, like Wall Street type of energy, like a lawyer, consultant, short haircut.  

And the second one is a very quiet stay-at-home mom, she doesn’t have any expensive anything, and then very simple. And the third one is a hippie like me, long hair and then like a musician type of or surfer type of energy.  

And I was like “Look at these people. These three were born and raised in the same house. How come these guys are so different?” And as I talk to them, I thought some of them were adopted. No, they’re biologically brothers and sisters, and I think you can relate to that.  

And I realize that they turn into a different people because of who they were to be, begin with, and also how they were brought up with, and also what kind of friends they had. Your brother’s friends could be totally different from your friends because their characters are completely different. And here comes these many traumas.  

When you’re six or seven, you wanted to have a mountain bicycle– which is me– and my parents said, it’s too expensive, and I took it like, “You are not worth it.” And then that keeps happening to me when I want to buy something, you are not worth it.  

And it’s almost like an instant affirmation saying, “No, that’s too expensive for me. That’s too expensive for me. My shirt is too expensive for me. My computer is too expensive for me.”  

It’s like a mantra repeating after and over and over in my brain. So, I just smile when I catch myself when I buy something, the old voices thing “Ken, that’s too expensive for you.” And I can smile at that because it’s like a sweetened bitter memory of my seventh birthday because I thought I’m already an adult, I remember saying that to my parent and said, “No, no, no, you’re too young for that.”  

And they’re all right because I cut so badly, my face here, here, here, like four deep cuts because I fell over with a big bike. So, they were so right about it but at the time I thought I was just completely denied.  

And I’m sure the same thing happened to you when you wanted to go to a summer camp or ballet lessons, piano lessons, soccer lessons, violin lessons. And I’m sure your parents said, “That’s too early, that’s too expensive for you, we don’t have that kind of money.” That really shattered your heart because that’s, you know, kids are very obsessive. Once you want something like a PlayStation, you really want to have it.  

And it’s interesting, I’ve done a lot of a lot of trauma healing in the past and the generation has different heartbreaks. We didn’t have any computer games at the time, so the younger ones, they had a heartbreak with plays stations, Nintendo Switch, so I think Japanese have a lot to do with kids’ trauma because all the toys seem to come from Japan, they really wanted, and they were denied.  

So, it’s so sad, you know? I’ve seen a lot of people cry when they hear me talk about money traumas, I’m sure they had something. And because of those things, we turn into different people. Remember I talk about the different personality types? Because of the money traumas, we hated it, so we wanted to become a Wall Street type of person, like your parents, smarter, go to a better college, get education and get paid higher.  

And some people become money in different type. Like the second one, the daughter who stays at home, and then she doesn’t want to do anything to do with money. And some of them become a hippie, some of them become a spender type. We all become different people, depending on how we reacted to the money issues. 

Ted Ryce: So, what I hear you saying is we have to think about, even if we grew up in the same home with the same parents, you mentioned that we are different people. In fact, some of the research on personality shows that 40 to 60% of our personality is based on our genes, based on some studies they’ve done with monozygotic twins– so twins that come from the same egg.  

And then what you’re also saying is, besides that personality hard wiring are experiences are different. And certainly, I was the firstborn son who is very different from my sister, very different from my brother.  

And so based on our experiences with our parents, but also as you pointed out, it’s not just our parents, it’s the people we’ve hung out with, it’s maybe the era, the decade in which we’re born, maybe some things changed. And so, all those considerations lead to the experiences that we have with money like you showed with the PlayStation, right? 

Ken Honda: Yes. 

Ted Ryce: So, Ken, the question that comes up for me as we’re talking about this in particular, what should parents know about this type of thing with their children? Because on one end, you’re going to have people whom they want to give the PlayStation, but they’re concerned about spoiling the children.  

And then you have other parents who are maybe tight on a budget and really want to give the PlayStation, but they can’t afford it right now, what do parents need to know about how to minimize giving their children money traumas? 

Ken Honda: Right, I have to warn you, the bad news is we are going to give it to them anyway, because some way or another, because of the friends or the life situations you’re going to give money traumas anyway.  

And the good news is that as long as you tell them that you love them, they’re okay. Like with a PlayStation, you could say “Ted, I’m so sorry that we don’t have that kind of money. And I’m so sorry. I feel so shameful that I cannot have the money and buy the PlayStation for you. So, I’ll promise you I’ll work harder so I can get you whatever you want in the future but as of now, we cannot do that. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t love you, you know? We love you so much, but the money is tight, and I hope you understand.”  

And you know, the boy or the girl may cry, but at least he or she knows that something about the money, it’s not about them. And as long as you let them know that you love them, no matter what that trauma doesn’t stay, so that’s one thing. And the other thing is about spoiling the children. That is more tricky because some spender type of child wants to spend forever.  

So, money in different types of people, they don’t even want a toy, you know? They’re okay with borrowing toys from their friends for like two hours, they don’t care. And the other kids, they just obsessively want to buy expensive clothes, some girls want they are going to fashion, they want new shoes, more expensive shoes, new bags, and cute bags, and cute everything, I mean, it’s going to cost you more.  

So, if your kids are a spender type, you have to really teach them how to budget themselves, otherwise, you’re going to send them to a bankrupt life. And when they’re small, you have to set a limit.  

And if you are child is a money different type, you have to teach them what money can bring to life so much joy. And if he or she is an entrepreneur type, you have to tell them money’s not everything, because they may end up being serial entrepreneurs and they just keep addicted to doing business, which is not a healthy way of life either.  

So, you have to teach your kids the right balance before they grow up otherwise, once you’re like 14 or 15, they usually stay the same and they’re not going to change, which is okay.  

You know, I’ve been to a high school reunion after 30 years of my graduation, and the guys, my friends, old buddies that I haven’t met for like 30 years, he used to be late, and that guy was late too, so I was just smiling at him he looks so old, like, I can’t believe you look like your daddy, because that’s how I will remember, right?  

And he was late again after 30 years like it was so amusing for me. Like, this guy was late 30 years ago, this guy is late today, so I’m sure he has been late for the past 30 years. So, if you’re 18 and you’re a certain person, it’s so likely that you’re not going to change. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, once we instil those habits, they’re hard to change, this is some more than others. Ken, when you were talking about the spender types and the entrepreneurs, and this obsessive getting more money, selling a business, and then asking yourself like, “Well, what do I do now? Let me go make more money because I don’t really know what else to do with myself.”  

Do you have a story about a person whom you helped in that type of situation? Because those are the people who listen to this show. 

Ken Honda: So, not only that kind of people, but all of us have to ask ourselves, “What is money for you?” And for moneymaker type, money is a number of recognition. $100,000 has a certain energy to recognize you: you did a great job, you’re smart, you’re a good boy or good girl.  

And if you reach $1 million mark, you feel so recognized, million dollars? Yay, you made it! And then you feel so pumped up. So, 5 million, 10 million, the same energy.  

So, even though the number is growing, you don’t get a bigger recognition. So, it’s almost you’re drinking seawater when you’re drifting out in a small boat. The thirstier you get, you drink more seawater, which makes you feel so thirsty, so this is a vicious cycle.  

So, unless you said “This is enough. I think I need to change myself and look at different directions than money,” you are going to be in this rut race of making more money so that your cage gets bigger, maybe like gold plated, and then it looks great. But you have to do the same thing over. And life is to be enjoyed, it’s not just about making money.  

But the same thing goes to different personality types too. If you are a spender, you have to stop spending to make both ends meet to get your boat on balance again. So, that means you need to focus on money making more, spending less money to have the right balance, otherwise you go into deeper debt with credit cards, and then you end up filing bankruptcy.  

And if you’re money different type, you have to pay more attention to what’s going on in people’s lives. And if you are a hippie, you could have more relationship with a society so that way you can be part of the community and still feel safe. So, there’s a different prescription for different people. 

Ted Ryce: That makes so much sense. And yeah, getting into those money types, you’ve mentioned that. Can you get into those different ones? How many are there? And you’ve mentioned three. Are there more than three? And what else do we need to know about the money types? 

Ken Honda: Yeah, and there are like somebody called a monk, they don’t need money, they can sleep on the floor, that type of people too, right? And also, a worrier, definitely in North America. I think in North America, for example, worrier and also spender are the big types because they’re kind of go in hand.  

Unfortunately, financially challenged people– the worriers and the spenders– they worry a lot because they make less money, and if you make less money, you shouldn’t spend more money.  

But I’m seeing those people full of big baskets at a dollar shop in poor areas, and they want to fill their holes in with gadgets and the things that may break in two weeks, but they buy them to feel good or to try to get rid of the stress. So actually, the less financially fortunate people are the ones who spend so much money, proportional wise.  

Wealthy people don’t need to go out shopping as much because they can go anywhere anytime. So, you know, when something is on sale, less financially fortunate people tend to buy more, so by doing that, you lose financial independence. So, you have to really educate yourself “What’s money?”  

And especially around emotional intelligence with money, otherwise, you know even though you are making less money, you spend so much money to validate you, which is not a healthy way to do. So, you have to validate yourself with a glass of water and walking instead of just drinking sodas and eating fat food and then go out shopping. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I really love your approach to this in perspective because—and you mentioned emotional intelligence when it comes to money, and that really is the key, right?  

We all know we shouldn’t spend more than we make, we should have savings, we should not just make money from our job or from our business, but we should invest it intelligently, we should think about the future. And I see so many parallels between what you teach.  

Of course, you’re much more successful entrepreneur, business person, and influential public figure than me, but I teach a lot of this a similar perspective when people approach health because those are the three big areas– money, health, and relationships.  

And if you don’t have a healthy relationship with how you get in shape, it leads into the same sort of cycles, the yo-yo dieting, the extreme exercises, the feeling really bad about when you have something that isn’t healthy.  

And certainly, the people who struggle the most with it are the ones who are guilty of the kind of like what you’re saying in the spending area, right? The people who struggle the most with financially, they tend to fall into the traps, they really need to avoid, and the same is true I think, for health.  

Ken, what would you say? Like how have you used these principles to improve your own family’s situation? Do you have a story you could tell from your own personal experience? 

Ken Honda: And before I go into that, I have a huge respect for you. So, you said, I’m a more influential? Numbers really don’t count in me, and I’ve listened to a few episodes of your podcast, and they’re wonderful. 

Ted Ryce: Thank you so much. 

Ken Honda: Because you are so dedicated to helping people, clients, and that counts more than the numbers of how much money we make or how many people are following you, that could be so deceiving. So, when I look at people, I just look at the energy in, and you’re full of love and care and generous heart, so I just want to recognize that.  

And I’m sure all the podcast listeners who’ve been listening to you, are following you because they love you. It’s not like they get certain things out of you, you know? So, I just wanted to remind you of that. 

Ted Ryce: Thank you so much for saying that, Ken. 

Ken Honda: Because I think you’re in North American culture, so you tend to probably compare who’s got more influence and who’s got more money and all that, and I don’t see people like that at all. So, I think we’re brothers in that sense, trying to help people from different angles.  

And when I talk about my family, we’ve been blessed with money, it’s only like my wife and daughter. So, we have way more than enough to support us. So, we want to be generous with money so we can support other families too, so I help people in so many ways financially, emotionally, and socially. So, we are always happy to talk about what we can share.  

During the Covid situation, we studied our personal basic income system to support families. So, who are close to us, and during the few years, we just support their entire families financially.  

And also emotionally, my daughter knows that I’ve been helping so many people and impacted so many people’s lives, and so she respects me very deeply so we have a very beautiful relationship.  

And the unit of three, we are respectful for each other because all the success I have had, all the energy comes from my wife and also my daughter, and everybody knows, and I really appreciate them for being in my life. So, even though I do a lot more business-related stuff, but energy we create together is a source.  

And that turns into many books, and also seminars and podcasts, and my love for them and my love for other people–it used to be Japanese people only, right? Because I only worked in Japan, but now my love is getting bigger, so it overflows me.  

So, now I have a huge love for English-speaking audience as well, so I’m so happy that I am ready to come out from this small place, this island as big as California, there are 120 million people in the size of California. And I’m getting out of this small, but still giant country, and I’m so happy to share what I know because it could help so many people.  

So, thank you, Ted. Somebody like you is pulling me out to a bigger place. So, I forever appreciate you for being the door to your audience. 

Ted Ryce: I appreciate that Ken and your message is one that more people need to hear, because even in the process of growing my business, and it’s the focus on more, focus on more, let’s make more, and I always ask “At the price of what though?” Because making money has a cost to it. 

And we’re not taught that, I had to learn that from people like yourself. And it’s something that is slowly seeping into people’s mindsets. But we have a lot of– like, you talk about– a lot of the habits from the past, the beliefs from the past. So, it’s an honour to have you on the show today and would love for this to be the first of many conversations.  

And if you are listening right now and you’re interested in Ken’s story and how he thinks about money and some of the things that he’s talked about today, make sure you go to Amazon and look up Happy Money: The Japanese Art of Making Peace with Your Money.  

If you’re someone, you have some of these challenges that Ken has been speaking about, and maybe you’re struggling with money, then you definitely need this book.  

But even if you’re doing well and you still have some of those anxieties about money, maybe the addiction, the compulsive behaviour to making more, even though it’s not bringing you the same amount of happiness that it used to, definitely go to Amazon to get Ken’s book, Happy Money: The Japanese Art of Making Peace with Your Money.  

And if you want to connect with Ken, you can connect with him. And of course, all these links will be on the show notes but just so you have it right now, you can connect with Ken on Instagram @happykenhonda or Twitter @kenhondahappy.  

So, depending on where you like to hang out on social media wise, there’s a place for you to connect with him, and I would love if you heard his show on this podcast. If you heard his interview on this podcast, would love for you to reach out and let him know where you heard it.  

Ken, it’s been such a pleasure, and as I said, I would love to have you back on again in the near future. 

Ken Honda: Thank you so much, Ted. That means a lot. I keep writing new books and hopefully, we’ll just connect again. And thank you so much for your generosity and the love that I could that I felt it so deeply.  

So, all the viewers, I’m just wishing you all this happiness and success and health that you can get. I’m sending you all my blessings from Japan, and thank you so much. Be happy. Stay happy. 

Ted Ryce: It’s been an honour, Ken. Thank you so much. 

Ken Honda: Thank you.