Podcast Transcription: The Free-Time Formula: Practical Strategies To Getting Twice As Much Done In Half Of The Time, Reduce Stress & Find Balance As A High Achiever with Jeff Sanders

Ted Ryce: Jeff Sanders, welcome back to the Legendary Life podcast, man. It's been, I don't know, it's been over a year, I think. So, really excited to catch up with you, and to see what you're up to in the world of productivity.  

Jeff Sanders: Yeah, it's been a while, I think you've been one of my guests that's been on my show a few times as well. I think you still have the record for longest interview, which is a lot of fun, too. 

Ted Ryce: Oh, I like that, I like that. And I'm a huge fan of your show, The 5 AM Miracle. If you're listening right now, you haven't heard Jeff's podcast, you got to check it out. If you're interested in, well, lowering your stress through improving your productivity, Jeff's show is a must listen. 

So, man, let's start out by this—I've had you on the show several times, I think our first episode was episode 136, Jeff Productivity Hacks to Dominate Your Day. That was the first time we had you on the show. We also had you on Episode 252: Three Simple Ways to Remove Distractions and Boost Your Productivity. So, if you're listening right now and if you enjoy those, make sure you go and check those out. 

Well, talk to me about what you're up to, because now that I think about it, we haven't talked at all since the whole COVID thing happened. 

Jeff Sanders: Hmm, wow! 

Ted Ryce: And so, coming out of that post COVID haze, what do you find people struggling with, with productivity?  

Jeff Sanders: Well, I think people went through a lot of phases, right? COVID challenged us in a variety of ways. And my family and I went through all kinds of transitions as well, and so, the initial experience of being locked down was one, and then the coming out of COVID, but then going back in again, and then coming out again. 

So, that back and forth was a challenge all by itself, was the shift of: where do I work? How do I focus? Can I focus where I go? Because my personal biggest challenge with productivity is not about having ideas of things to do, I have tons of those, right? It's never about, do I have opportunities? There's tons of those. It's, can I focus on what matters most?  

And focus has been the biggest challenge for most people, if you shift from working at an office to working from home, or if your kids are at home while you're working, which was my life story for a couple of years, and still kind of is sometimes. 

So, the people that I've worked with, it's the same story, right? Focus is the biggest challenge. And then now that we are regaining focus, the question is, how are we approaching our work and our life differently post COVID than we did beforehand?  

Because I think a lot of people's perspectives have shifted; we're asking new questions about, can I live my life in a more intentional way than before, knowing that I have access to better technology, or I could work in a variety of locations, possibly around in the globe.  

Like what opportunities now exist that weren't there before? And so, that, to me, is the more interesting question of, can I live my life in a better way than before, because of what I've experienced and learned through a pandemic? 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, and I relate to that as well. I started asking myself the hard questions. And really interesting Jeff, I'm not sure if you had this challenge previously, before the whole COVID thing happened, but with online coaching, I had people saying to me like, “Hey, does this online coaching thing work?” 

And then after COVID our business actually, I don't know, it got super busy during COVID. And that's no longer a question that I have at all ever these days, at least with, maybe it's just the people I'm talking to, maybe, but I tend to believe, I don't know if I'm right or not. But I tend to believe that our world has become more dig… Well, it's been going on the path of becoming more digital, more online, more internet. 

Jeff Sanders: Yes, big time. 

Ted Ryce: And COVID just locks us all at home, and the only thing we had to do is play on the internet with our phones, and surf the internet with our phones, watch streaming services, etcetera. And so, it kind of fast forwarded us— can't speak English today—to this place that we're at now.  

And like you said, focus has always been the issue, but I feel like we're on, so, like if we look at the stats of social media, more people were on social media than ever before during that, and it seems like the numbers may have come down a little bit, but people are still, like it's increasing, we're spending more on more time on social media, which means we're spending more time distracted. 

When you see today's challenges, and asking about being more intentional, you see today's challenges, can you share a story of a client of yours who was struggling with some of this, and how you helped them overcome it, to become more productive, more focused. 

Jeff Sanders: I’ve had a few of those recently, I think one guy in particular I'm thinking of, who the issue of social media was a big one, right? Always on Facebook. Twitter was his issue, always on Twitter, which I have found, there's certain networks that they all operate differently. Twitter by default is an angry place to be. People get in arguments, they tend to vocalize political views, it gets hostile pretty quickly. 

And so, his issue was just the habit of always going there, instead of going to the next task. It was, I have work to do today, I have priorities, I have goals, but I just want to be in that space. And it's a mental space that he got himself into, of constantly trying to go back to these conversations with total strangers about topics that didn't affect his business. 

And then you're asking the question, does this provide value in your life? Or are you just angry? Are you just feisty? Are you just distracting yourself purposefully or not? Is this serving you or your business? And the answer was a clear no. So, the question was just, how do we block this service for a little while, take a breather, and then if you come back to it at all, you come back on a limited basis, like 30 minutes a day tops, then cut it off and go do your job. 

And it's amazing what can happen when you remove those major distractions. When you identify those things in your life, whatever it is, it could be Twitter, it could be Facebook, it could be whatever the thing is for you, a news cycle that you are addicted to, which this is an addiction, and you change the habit, and it's no longer there, you find yourself with that free time to then say, well, now I could ask those questions of: with this extra breathing room, can I get more creative? Can I find better solutions? Can I move myself forward? 

And this client's example, that definitely happened, because the anger, the hostility of that platform was gone. Well then all of a sudden, he's a little happier, a little more creative, a little more peppy in his, like, he's going somewhere now. And he still misses it—that's a key thing here, there is a dopamine hit from these services, we're still going to miss the value we thought we were getting. 

So, we have to change the conversation to, well, what's going to replace that that's more valuable, that's more interesting, that's more productive for us. And that transformation, it takes some time, but when it happens, you are living a better life in the end, it's worth that effort to make that switch. 

And so for me, that's always the conversation, is, how do we make that transformation in a way where you are excited about where you're headed to next? And making sure that's a more appealing place to go  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. So, what I hear you saying is that, and I don't want this to come across the wrong way, social media companies, they design their product to be good, in other words, in the way that they…And they are good. The way they interpret good or measure good is by how many people sign up and stay on their platform. 

So, the problem is that doesn't always serve us unless it's like me, by the way, I'm totally hooked on Twitter, although I don't argue with people. I've good boundaries up there, but I'm on Twitter a lot. And yeah, unless you use it for business, you have to ask yourself, what are you doing there? Even if you're talking about politics, and saying that you're being informed, it's like, is this leading to a meaningful and measurable result in your life? 

And if the answer is no, then isn't it just entertainment? I mean, you're not saying that, I'm saying that, but that's how I think about it. How do you think about that? 

Jeff Sanders: Oh, it totally is entertainment, I agree a hundred percent, that's what it is, is entertainment. Yeah 

Ted Ryce: And even if it's something like a, let's say injustice, right? I hate to put it this way, but it still seems like you're entertaining yourself with it, if there's no…because I don't believe that arguing online leads to any meaningful and measurable change for the better. 

So, even if it's something where you care about it a lot. Like for example, the whole Ukraine, Russia invasion of Ukraine, I've never posted about it at all, but I send money, I've sent money and helped one of our employees who is Ukrainian, and I've never even talked about it until…well, I think I've mentioned it once on the podcast, but I don't talk about it on social media as a thing. 

And so, and not to prop myself up or anything like that, but I'm just using that as an example, a personal example of like, you know, because I get lost into madness too. Mostly the arguments have to do with like, “carbs make you fat,” it's not about politics, that's as political as it usually gets from me, “Carbs make you fat.” I'm like, “No, they don't, too many calories make you fat.” But yeah, can you talk a little bit about how you view habits and breaking bad habits and creating better one. 

Jeff Sanders: Yeah. And this is a big topic, for me during COVID, it was a big issue, but talk about carbs and calories. Like, I definitely gained my old COVID 19. My habits were tested, and I failed in a number of ways. So personally, I know what it's like to acquire bad habit, to then let go of that bad habit to get back into good cycles. Right now, I'm in a really good cycle of going to the gym frequently, and I feel very good about that. 

And one thing that I have at least personally experienced is that there have been past versions of me, I call the better Jeff Sanders, really good times in my life, good seasons where I was just killing it. Like I was really fit, I was really healthy, I felt really energized, I was enthusiastic about my work. And then I have seasons recently where I've been challenged in those areas.  

And so, then my question becomes, how do I bring the best of who I used to be, and combine that with maybe a more mature version of my current self, and combine that into a better future me going forward? And whenever I think about that, it's always about habits. That is the foundation of all of this.  

And so, my question for me is, you know, a guy with the 5 AM Miracle Podcast, I love early mornings. But more than, I love the daily routine aspect of identifying, here are the core things I want to get done every day: here are the things that matter the most, and here's how I'm going to guarantee that those key things get done. 

And I find that that becomes the question that most people miss, is the guarantee part. Like they'll say like, “Oh, I value healthy food, I value working out, I value making money in my business.”  

But have you guaranteed the time and the location, and the resources, and blocking the distractions, like the extra work it takes to make sure that if you said you were going to do task A, then task A definitely got done, 100%, no questions. Unless you're literally sick in bed and dying today, you're up, and you're doing that thing. 

It's a really big step to go from identifying what you want, to execution on a consistent basis. And so to me, that becomes the biggest challenge, and once that's nailed down though, and you really have a system that works for you, and it's repeatable.  

Well then all of a sudden, these habits are just part of your life now. And it's no longer a question of will I see improvements at the gym? Will I gain more muscle? Will I make more money? Of course, you will, because the system is in place, and it's guaranteed to work. 

And so, to get to that point though, it's a big shift, to go from a life where things are haphazard, busy, eclectic with lots of ideas, to one of: here's a solid plan, it's in place, and I know it works. That takes a lot of work to make that transition, but it's such a beautiful place to get to.  

And so, for me, that's my personal challenge, it's many of clients’ challenge, like how do we get us from where we have been, to this new place where things are rock solid? 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. Its funny how we tend to choose the thing that is easy now, but leads to a bad result later, versus doing the hard thing now that leads to a much better result later. I mean in my world it's: “I do keto diet.” Okay, do you? Because I need to lose body fat, not me personally, but a hypothetical potential client here, and they're doing the keto diet, and you ask them, “Well, do you like eating carbs?” 

“Well, yeah, I love carbs.” “Okay, and you see yourself doing the keto diet for the rest of your life.” So, not eating carbs, staying in ketosis, and they say, “Well, not really.” And it's, “Well then, why don't you just learn how to eat carbs and lose fat at the same time?” Now, maybe there's some belief issues there, and they believe that cards are inherently fattening. 

But let's say they don't, they just know that the keto works for them. And it's like, well, why are you going to choose something that's unsustainable? Because it's easier to do now. 

Jeff Sanders: Of course. 

Ted Ryce: And so, what do you have to say about that phenomenon? How do you get people to do the harder thing that will give the better result down the line, but it's just a bit harder to start.  

Jeff Sanders: For me, it's always been trying to identify what it is that's attractive about that next thing? So, if you're going to start some new habit, like I'll give a good example here of it is currently October, and I decided for this month, I was going to do the sober October challenge. Not that alcohol is actually a major issue for me, but I just found myself drinking more than I probably should have. So, it was a good chance to back that off. 

In this month, I'm asking myself that question, is this just some weird boot camp experience to change my habits? Or is this a permanent lifestyle shift? And what approach do I want to take with this? And I find that that becomes the question you're asking of, is this new thing I'm approaching a short-term thing? Like I'll be keto for a month, or am I going to be keto for life? 

Those are two very different questions, and they have different outcomes, and they also have a different rationale for why you're doing this, a different benefit involved. So, for me to say I'm going to do 30 days without alcohol. Okay, that's a short-term benefit, but 10 years from now that 30 days will mean nothing if I continue drinking the whole time. 

And so, my question then becomes, well, if 10 years from now, I plan to be 10 years older in 10 years, if I'm still alive. Well, I'd like to be healthier then, I'd like to be more successful then. So, what does it take to change my life now to believe in that vision for the future? To really identify with this future version of me who's doing things better, and I am attracted to that vision more than I'm attracted to the short-term shiny object in front of me? 

And it takes a real personal shift to believe in that future version of you more than you believe in the donut in front of you, right? It's a big shift to make. And is there a secret to that? Some of it's discipline, some of it is personal experience, it really depends on that area of life as well. There are certain areas of my life where it's easy for me to let go of the short-term thing, and others, let's just say coffee as an example. I love my caffeine. 

If you ask me to let go of coffee, we have to talk for a while. I'm really into that. So, it really depends on what it is we're talking about, what it is you're letting go of or changing, and is the future version of you going to look back and be mad at you or regret? Or is the future version of you going to look back and say, I'm so glad you made that choice, because look at what happened because of that. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, that's a good one. It reminds me of Tony Robbin’s rocking chair exercise, where you're supposed to envision yourself 85 years old on the rocking chair, looking back at your life and saying, well, was I happy about what I did? Do I feel fulfilled looking back? Or do I feel full of regret? And Jeff, I would love to even take this a step forward. What you said when we were talking about Twitter and your client, the dopamine hit, right? 

I think human behavior is pretty simple, we do things that make us feel good, we stay away from things that make us feel bad, it's pretty simple. Where it gets complex is that when the cookie for example, just use the example you were talking about, or the donut.  

The donut makes you feel good now, but later when you're looking at yourself 10 years from now, as an example, where you had that donut every day, and all the other things that probably went along with it. Look at yourself in the mirror, now, you don't like what you see. 

Because most of the people who sign up with me, they're not like, Ted Man, I'm looking awesome, I feel amazing. But I just thought I'd pay you a bunch of money, because I'm just in such a great mood. No, like I don't like the way I look, and that haunts me for the rest of the day.  

I feel like I'm getting old, I get out of breath when I'm running around chasing my kids. And there's a moment where it's like, I have to do something. So, motivation is super high, it's more high than the donut. The dopamine hit from taking action to change their habits, is way higher than whatever they were doing before.  

And then another problem is that they'll lose 10 or 20 pounds, and then the motivation can go away after that. And then they slide backwards, that's another issue. Or, another issue is that they're getting great results, but then—this is typically, this isn't on my program, because I make sure I adjust things.  

But people will stay doing the keto diet even though they hate it. And they love the results at first, but they hate it six months down the line, and they have to stop, because the pain from doing keto is just too much. They just want to relax. The same thing goes with exercise. 

And I would love to hear your thoughts about finding how to get people into—how you get people into improving their productivity through making the processes more enjoyable, I'm not even sure how you do it, but I think you know what I'm asking. 

Jeff Sanders: I think that's…Well, for me, like I have put a pretty strong emphasis on fun. Like I want to enjoy what I'm doing, I started an Academy years ago called The Rocking Productivity Academy, and I used the term rocking intentionally, because I meant like music, like we're going to rock out and have fun while we're getting things done. Like that was the whole point behind it. 

Because for me, if I'm having a great day, usually it means I'm excited for the work that I'm doing, I have high energy, I feel healthy and good. Like there is an enthusiasm and a momentum that I've built up, and the day is going to feel fun, and the work could be easy, the work could be hard, it doesn't matter, I'm excited to go get stuff done and check these boxes and feel that sense of progress. 

Now for me, as a productivity guy, I get this a dopamine hit or a high from checking boxes. Like I love to say, I had this task, I got it done, check, onto the next one. Like that gets me motivated, not everyone has that same sense of loving productivity, but they love the results of the things they're doing.  

The question becomes, can we craft a day that you are looking forward to that has fun built in, or like baked into the process. And then when you get these things done, you are rewarding yourself in some way that is good. 

I get rewarded by simply checking the box, not everyone has that same sense of a hit, so that then they're asking their selves, how do I find my thing that I love from this process? And that could be a reward that's external from this, but it really is about that question of, how do we tie the work you're doing today with enjoyment? Like how do we connect those pieces together?  

Because then when that happens, you're not looking at the day and saying, well, I have all of this arduous work to do, all this discipline to exude. That's exhausting, no one's going to do that for very long. 

As opposed to, when these things get done, as they're getting done, I'm enjoying the process, I'm seeing the progress, the goals I want to achieve are happening, like there is a positive momentum that's taking place.  

But there has to be a connection of fun, enthusiasm, and enjoyment with the process, the journey to get there. It can't just be the end result only, like there has to be a step by step, I'm loving as much as I can of what I'm doing on a daily basis. 

And when that happens, then all of a sudden, your daily work, your daily process is part, that journey is fun. And that to me is the whole point, because life is a journey, it's not just so much of finish lines, right? Like every day is the work to eventually get there. But if you hate every step along the way, something's wrong.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, and I'd love to hear more about that. This conversation is reminding me of a call I had with my business coach, and he was saying, listen, the work is like sand, and your schedule, let's say your time, is like an empty canister.  

And the recovery and fun are rocks, and he said, if you pour in the work, it fills up all the space, no problem. And there's no room for anything else there. So he said, schedule the fun, schedule the recovery, put it in first, then fill in the work, because it'll fill in all around the rocks. 

And I probably didn't do the greatest job of repeating exactly his metaphor there, but I'm hoping everyone listening can get that. And what do you have people do to make the productivity process more fun? 

Jeff Sanders: Well, I think for me, the first step, I know for my personal example is, I identify the things in my own life that bring out the best in me. So, I'll use an example here of running the trails, like I have a park here in Nashville I love to go to.  

And when I go to that park and I run, or just spend time in nature in general, it brings out the best version of me. I'm more energized, I'm more enthusiastic, I'm more creative, and I can bring that energy to my work. 

Well, that same thing is true for most people, which is there's an activity, maybe it's doing yoga, maybe it's talking to your kids, like there's a thing that brings out the best in you. And the question becomes, how do we start the day with those activities?  

Because if you start the day with the thing that brings out the best in you, you're going to enter into your workday with that same sense of an attitude, and a positivity that you otherwise wouldn't have. 

Because most people, when they begin their day late, stressed out, exhausted already, and then that's the attitude of going into the day. Well, then the day is already done, you've already ruined the day by starting the day off poorly.  

But if you flip the script and say, we're going to do fun, exciting, energizing stuff first, if at all possible with your schedule, there's early the days you can, that's going to give you that foundation to then have the rest of the day make a whole lot more sense, because you're ready to go do the thing you said you would do. Because you've got that energy and the foundation built. 

So for me, the beginning of the day is just so epically important, because without that foundation, for most people, they start off tired and stressed out, and that's just a very poor way to begin any day.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, that's so important, and of course you covered that in your book that I've read many years ago, excellent book by the way. So yeah, let's talk about stress Jeff. What's your view on stress and how to handle it for the clients who we both work with? 

Jeff Sanders: Stress for me was a really big deal a few years ago, and it's still around on occasion. And now that I have two young kids, my stress levels tend to shift with their schedules as well.  

But one thing I will say was that, my first book, The 5 AM Miracle was getting things done, and really being productive. My second book, The Free Time Formula, was about how I had panic attacks, and went to the hospital because I was killing myself. 

So, I've seen both sides of this coin, right? I know it's like to be productive, and I know it's like to be so productive that you are burning yourself out. And so, my perspective on stress becomes one of how does that tied into everything that you're doing? Because stress will show up if that's the default mechanism in your life.  

I know for me, like as a high energy guy who likes this caffeine, who likes to be productive, I'm naturally inclined to be more stressed, because I'm naturally just adding more to my day. 

So, my personal biggest strategy is to remove, how do I delete things, cancel things, not do things? Free up time, have more margin, more free time in my life, and then with that free time I use my time to strategize and make better decisions for the work hours and the focus blocks of time I do have.  

And so, it becomes a question of, what's setting you off? What's causing the stress to begin with? And how can we remove those stressors, identify them one by one, know what they are, and tackle them one at a time. 

For me, oftentimes, stress just comes from simply trying to do too many things in a single. Well then, let's just do fewer things, just right off the bat, don't do 12 things today, we're going to do two things, and when those two things get done, and you happen to have free time after that, then maybe you do one more thing.  

But the day has to start small, because time will fill up with all kinds of activities. People are going to call you, you're going to get ideas, things are going to shift, like, life has a natural tendency to be more complex than we envisioned up front. 

You could schedule your calendar for the week, and have it nicely filled in with how all the hours of the week will play out, but when that day shows up, the schedule will have shifted, things will have changed, things will have shown that you didn't expect to see coming at all. Like you will just get yourself caught up in a schedule that was overbooked to begin with, even if you thought you under booked it. 

Which means for me, the only real challenge is, how do you seriously under book your time, like under schedule everything, so that the only things on your calendar are those prime things that have to get done. And it becomes this extreme filter for prioritization. How do we guarantee what matters most gets done, and ignore everything else? That tends to be the strategy for those who are super busy, and those who have found themselves stressed out. 

The only real answer is we have to have a slower pace with fewer things, and that could mean less coffee too, that's a whole different conversation. But really, it's just less is more, like that is the mantra for all of this.  

Ted Ryce: Less is more productivity. I remember a conversation, I don’t remember which one it was, but I remember you saying that. Productivity is always about—or at least the way you teach it and practice it—is about removing, not adding more things, that really stuck with me. Yeah, and where does mindset fit into this whole perspective of productivity for you?  

Jeff Sanders: I guess it depends on how you want to view mindset. From my perspective, I'm looking at through the lens of like, how can I approach my day with a positive attitude of a diligence to the next task.  

My mindset throughout the day is, looking forward to the next action. What is this next thing I get to do, and how can I get that thing done in a way that is fun and efficient? And so, I'm thinking about next actions. 

I say that because I did an episode on my podcast recently that you become what you think about, it's a great common phrase in personal growth. And there's this entire world around what you think about is what you get from your day, what you get from your life. And so, if you're thinking about your problems, your stressors, the guy on Twitter you're mad at, like if you're thinking about those things, you get more of that.  

But if you're thinking about the things you want, the things that are your next actions to take to make progress, you're thinking about the success you are achieving now, and will achieve the next three or four hours, well then that just drives you forward to go do those things. So, what you're thinking about is success, and then you get more of that.  

And so it becomes a mindset shift of not thinking about the negatives and the stressors, and the bad things, but the positive actions you can take now to improve what's going on, that leads to actual improvement. And so, that's the mindset shift that for most people is a necessary thing, because the negative tends to drive the conversation most of the time. And so, it takes some real intentionality to shift from the negative to the positive, from the distractions to the productive thoughts, like that is a very important shift. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah, I like that you said that there's a bias we have called the negativity bias, right? You're familiar with that, I'm sure. And so, we have a tendency to be negative, if you're just listening and hearing this for the first time, human beings have this tendency to be negative, because the idea is that threats in the past were not like today, it's not like, hey man, I got to pay my mortgage or take the kids to soccer practice. It was more like, there's a tiger there, it's going to eat me, or there's a blizzard and no food. 

So, it drives you to action, so you're constantly paying attention to negatives, but it's a bit of a mismatch in today's modern world, where you either run away from the lion, or it finds something else to do, or it eats you, and your problems are over. Versus, the mortgage is a 30-year mortgage, or whatever it is that is stressing you out in your life, and it's just constantly there. Right?  

And so, I love that you said we have to be intentional about being positive, and creating positive feelings, because the tendency for so many of us, like you said before, people start their day stressed and tired, and it's hard to get anything done, whether it's your business, relationships or taking care of your health, you're coming from that place. 

Yeah, that's a really interesting perspective on that. What are some other things that you find are maybe miss about productivity that are talked about, maybe Gary V “Hustle all the time,” or what are some things out there that other productivity people say that you think are miss, or things that people believe that are Miss?  

Jeff Sanders: I think the most common thing that I hear, which frustrates me, but as an entrepreneur, my life is, my personal, professionals to me all come together, one big, just my whole life is everything I do. 

But the average person who maybe is an employee, or maybe has work that feels like it's some other force in your life that you don't control, or your boss controls, your to-do list. A lot of people view productivity as a very specific work-related set of tasks, that someone else told you to do. And so, their only perspective on productivity is, being productive means checking boxes to not get fired. Like that becomes a norm. 

The way I look at productivity in general is never the sense of, it's only work related. For me, being productive is all the things we do all day, right? All the tasks we're going to do, all the “work” we're doing. But I say work meaning, all the things I do, personal, professional, or otherwise, it's all my life. And so, the question becomes, how can you be productive in the sense of getting the most out of the 24 hours you have? 

No matter what you're doing, whether you're on vacation, or at the office, doing a personal project, or something for somebody else, how do you get more value from your time? And productivity in general, yes, you could check a lot of boxes, but as I've seen, checking more boxes is just a stressful cycle of nonsense. It's more the question of value, which doesn't require a lot of boxes being checked, or appeasing your boss. 

Value becomes the time that you spend on this earth, what do you want to see come from that? And then what are the activities that you can prioritize to make that more possible? So, it's a different conversation of that minute look at the next 24 hours, versus the bigger question of: how do I want my life to play out for the next 10 and 20 years? And what things do I really value that really make my life better? And then have the productive sense of making today one day closer to that bigger vision? 

And so, the boxes you're checking, personal, professional, or otherwise, are related to your bigger life mission. Like being productive is tied to your values, your principles, and the epic journey of your life you're telling. And so, to me, it's so much more than just the next task list.  

But there has to be this sense of, this is the life I'm living, here's the vision I have for it. And when those things can be tied together, then you are assigning value to those little tasks today, because they are adding up to this bigger vision you have for yourself. 

Ted Ryce: Wow, I love that you're saying that it's not about checking the boxes to whether it's for your boss not to get fired, or whether it's for your business, it's not about going through the motions and checking boxes and not… Yeah, and that cold relationship to it, it's about, am I creating the vision? Am I creating the life that I'm going to look back and say, wow! That was amazing.  

Jeff, can you talk about when this productivity, or when people approach productivity wrong and they're a little too type A, and overdo it. What can you say about that? When people like, “Whoa, I have this scheduled from here to here,” and then I, you know, scheduling, I have one client who I worked with, his wife was always scheduling parts of their lives together, and he felt it was overwhelming versus her, she felt like, oh, that was perfect for her.  

I guess that's two questions. One about overdoing productivity, and then about doing it in the context of relationships. So, can you answer the first one? And then we’ll move on to the second. 

Jeff Sanders: Well, the idea, like, I am definitely a type A guy, like I clearly, I call myself a high achiever, and I value this idea that I want to prioritize those types of things. My wife is also a high-achieving type A person, so, in that sense of relationships, I know what it's like to have that duke out.  

But from my perspective, the people I work with, the ones who view themselves as high achievers, they have big goals of trying to achieve, the type A personality. As much as I used to value this, I'll give a good example here. When you're in school, and we have the 4.0 valedictorians of the class, like the “best students,” that are the highest achieving.  

And the data shows that the valedictorians of the world are less successful than C students. C students tend to outperform in the real world, and most entrepreneurs actually were the C students, because they were too distracted to do their homework, they didn't care about class, they were starting some business on the side, right? 

There's this whole different mentality that plays in, but what it really comes down to is that the Type A people who are checking boxes, and being perfectionist in that pursuit, we're wasting tons of time on tiny details that didn't actually affect the bottom line.  

This is my tendency, is I love details, I love to make sure that everything is in place, but I do so to my own detriment. I do so despite the fact that the bigger picture could play out differently and better if I were to let go those details, be okay with good enough, and not have to pursue perfect. 

There is this definite like issue, myself included here, with high achievers and type A people who want perfection all the time, we want the best all the time. But not every area of your life and business can be the best, and it shouldn't be. You should intentionally draw a line and say, once we've hit a certain quality bar, we're done, we move on.  

And it takes a real big life shift to be able to acknowledge that the work I've been doing, though it is great, it can't continue for you to then also achieve the end result you want in all these areas, it's too much for any one person to handle. And so you find yourself overwhelmed, because you’re prioritizing things that ultimately could be let go. And that to me is a big challenge for those type A folks as well.  

Ted Ryce: Did you struggle with that personally? Were you the straight A student? I was the C student, just… 

Jeff Sanders: Okay, I wasn't the straight A student, but I was definitely, I was the one that, hey, I'm mostly A's, I'm like, I wanted the best grades possible, because, and also at that point, that's what I valued, like I thought, and I was tied this idea that to be successful in school meant perfect grades.  

I miss the fact that school is a preparation for the next step, that we're doing this for something else, it's a means to an end, and the end is a career, it's an industry, it's a pursuit of something higher. It's not just checking the box to get the perfect grade.  

Like, if all you did was achieve that and you finished school and say, ‘Hey, I got a 4.0, I'm done,” I was like, “Yeah, you're done with school, but there's rest of life to live now. Like how does that play into your next step?” 

And so, for me, it was a lack of vision about where I would go next. And so, that really plays into how I make choices today is, how does this next project, this next pursuit tie into the 5-year plan, or where I think I'm going next? Because if it's not tied really clearly to my future vision, it might be a waste of time altogether.  

The whole project may to be scrapped, because I'm doing the wrong thing next. And that becomes a question of like, where are we going? Like what is this all for? And once that's in place, it makes a whole lot more sense. 

Ted Ryce: Do you have problems with clients who don't want to let go of the details to prioritize the bigger picture?  

Jeff Sanders: Oh, yeah. That's a huge issue because people—once again, that dopamine hit, we get that sense of accomplishment from doing things really well, we want to make sure things are the absolute best. I had this issue with my own podcast, where I spent a lot—I mean, I am my own podcast editor, producer, like I do all the stuff. And I do all the stuff, but I shouldn't, this is the message here.  

I'm also personally a control freak, I handle more things than I should, I don't delegate like I should. Like, we find ourselves in these positions where we believe that our way is the only best way, and that no one else can be trusted. Which limits your growth, it limits your potential.  

And so, it becomes that question of: what should I only handle? And how do I let go of the rest or delegate it or just delete it? And then all of a sudden, your to-do list, your personal to-do list, is a whole lot shorter, it's more clear, and should be tied in that sense then to your best value to bring to the world. And the things you're not as good at, you can let go, and that becomes one of the best shifts to make long term.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah. We talked about the example earlier where spending time on Twitter when your business doesn't revolve around social media, that's an obvious one. But when it's less obvious, when you can make a solid argument for something that you are trying to get done, but it may not be your top one, two or top three priorities, but you feel like you try to get it in. Yeah, that's a tougher conversation, you know?  

Jeff Sanders: It's nuanced, and there's a lot of subjectivity here, like no one's going to tell you, here's your number one task today. It's your job to define what that thing is. So, this it's complicated, right? You could hire a coach to tell you what your number one thing is, but that coach could be wrong. Or you could decide, you could be wrong, we don't know the answer.  

But we do know that if you're spending your time on the obvious stuff, that's a waste of time. When that is chipped away, there are fewer things on the list, and then you continue that same process of identifying, what is the most next obvious thing to let go of?  

And so, that's approaching it from the editing out the bad things side. I had the opposite approach as well, that I call my green pen strategy, where I'm asking the question using a green pen, what's the best area of my life that I want to amplify? What's the best area of the business that I want more of? 

And when you can identify the best things, the ones that really shine as your opportunities for the future, you double down on those, and then the rest can be ignored, because the rest doesn't matter anymore, because the thing you're doubling down on is providing the bulk of the results.  

That tends to be an easier strategy than trying to chip away at all the negatives, is just double down the positives. It's two sides of the same coin though, it all gets to a better answer, so, all these things can play into it. 

But to subjectively decide what matters most today, like, what should I do? That's a skill that needs to be practiced and honed over time, to make better decisions. Like, I'm constantly trying to improve that skill for myself, because my biggest issue is, I have way too many thoughts, way too many ideas.  

So, my tendency is to do too much, I know that, that's just what I do. So, I have to work at that every day to ask the question, what can I not do today? Versus what can I do? That for me is more important.  

Ted Ryce: Yeah, that is powerful. And it's something that I've been doing a lot myself, I know that if I sit down and create content, do more podcasts, have amazing guests on like yourself, that will drive my business. And I have data to prove it, but I didn't have that data initially, now I do. 

 And actually, Twitter is a more successful use of my time than Facebook as an example. Very powerful, Jeff. I love that, doubling down, being aware—having data ideally, but being aware of what those things are that are really leading to the results that you want doubling down on. Any other best strategies that someone right now could take and implement in their life?  

Jeff Sanders: Wow, best strategies? I think one of the things that I'm personally into right now is maybe not related to productivity, but kind of is, is I got really into the sauna at my gym recently. So, I'm like vegging out in the sauna a whole lot more than before. And one thing I also shifted to is I bring in a waterproof notepad and pen, and so, while I'm vegging out, I have no phone with me, I'm just getting hot for 30 minutes. And while I'm sweating it out, I get ideas there, and I write them. 

And I've used that time now for more like a creative pursuit, as much as a health goal. So yes, I'm detoxing or just de-stressing in the sauna, but I'm also allowing myself then to say, well, what new ideas do I have I could pursue later? And I get so many ideas now directly in the sauna. I have the same waterproof notepads in my shower, like I have notepads every, because when I get ideas, I want to record them.  

And then I can prioritize that list later, but at least don't forget the idea, write it down wherever you are, and then be in that mindset shift of, how can I be more creative today? Because those creative ideas are going to lead to the breakthroughs for the next big move. 

And that, for me is like a general trend, is, if I can get the ideas out of my head, get them on the paper, have more creativity in my life in general, well then, I'll figure out those problems over time, I'll let myself, let my brain mull it over, and then when I have that flash of brilliance, I write it down. And that has been just so helpful in a lot of ways. 

Ted Ryce: Yeah. What's the brand of the notebooks that you use, can you share or recommend one? 

Jeff Sanders: Ooh, the brand, I'd have to look it up. I mean I've got Amazon on speed dial here. I had a brand before called Aqua Notes, but I think they went out of business, if I'm not mistaken. I'm going to look this up right here, because this is the internet, you can find things while you're here. Oh, it disappeared. I will send you the link after the interview's over, of what those things are, so you can tell your audience about it. 

But yeah, I used to use one called Aqua Notes, and now I'm on a different brand, but you can Google waterproof Notepad and you will find these things, and then you can, they work really well. You can use a regular ballpoint pen with them as well. So, I use a regular pen, and this notepad, and I just record the ideas, and they don't smear, so you can sweat all over these things and get them wet and they're good to go. 

Ted Ryce: Amazing. I love that because I'm a fan of the sauna as well. And man, it's just… I think certain things like that, of course, you can just relax and, if that's what you feel is best, you can roll with it. But for me, I prefer to do something like that, I get a lot of ideas, and I probably lose a lot of ideas, because once you get in that creative mode, then the ideas start flooding, and it's like, oh man, that's amazing. Oh, wow, another great idea. 

And then by the time you get around to writing it, drying off, showering, like, what was that great idea I had in the sauna? So fantastic. And if you have a sauna, I have clients who have saunas, and other people who like to use this sauna as well. If you're a sauna user as well, then check out the Aqua Notes, or the waterproof notepad. 

Yeah, Jeff, this has been an amazing conversation. I always appreciate having you on the show, your energy just, man…You reminded me of some things. I decided not to join a gym recently, because I was going to a gym, I was getting into great shape, but I'm only here for 10 days, I'm in another area of Lisbon, and then I'm heading to Paris for a week, and I got a crazy travel schedule. 

So I was like, ‘Nah, I'm not going to join a gym for just two weeks, because I got to pay for the month, and I'll just work out at home.” And it hasn't been working that well, I feel my energy's way lower than usual. So, having you on this show and talking about these things, it has been a great reminder for me too, like, hey, listen, you’ve got to be aware of what's happening, the consequences of your choices when it comes to productivity and creative problem solving. And make sure that you’re taking action on those things. 

Even if you come up with a good excuse, like, ‘Oh well, we’re only going to be here for two weeks”. I mean, it's not that much money, it's like 40 bucks for the month, right? But I was just like, oh, well, you know, I got to walk to it, it's 40 bucks, you know, I’ll just work out at home.  

And I'm doing okay, but what I'm trying to say is, thanks so much for coming on the show, sharing your wisdom, sharing your story, and most importantly, your time. It's always a pleasure, my friend. 

And if you, today, if this is your first time listening to the incredible Jeff Sanders, and you want more, make sure you go over to www.jeffsanders.com. That's his website, where you can just go right to the 5 AM Miracle Podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts, and subscribe to it, so that you can get more Jeff Sanders. Jeff, any words of, parting words for the audience today? 

Jeff Sanders: Well, I was just thinking about this whole sauna thing, and one thing that popped in my head was that, what has made the sauna effective for me, and what's made the gym effective for me in general, is that it's an external place to go to. And when I go to it, it's the only thing I'm doing. So, I'm in the sauna, I'm just in the sauna, I'm at the gym, I'm just lifting weights. If I'm at home though, I have a home office, if I'm here, I could do a thousand things here. 

And so focus is so influenced by your environment. And so, if you are struggling with an issue, whether it's your fitness or your business, if you go to a location where the only thing you're going to do there is one specific activity, you will do it.  

Like, I have found that when I go to the library, I read, I go to the gym, I lift weights, like it's just very clear. The more clarity you have on where you go, and then what you do when you're there, the more guarantee of success you will have with those activities. 

And, for me, that's been an epically important aspect of scheduling my time, is scheduling where I will be to guarantee the activity that will take place once I'm there. So, I find that has been for me, very, very helpful.  

Ted Ryce: Jeff Sanders, powerful parting words. Thanks so much for coming back on the show, my friend. And again, if you're listening to this episode, go to jeffsanders.com or find the 5 AM Miracle Podcast wherever you listen to podcast. Jeff, it's been a pleasure man, and let's not wait another two years before we do this.  

Jeff Sanders: That sounds great, love it Tanks a lot. 

Ted Ryce: Thank you.